0:43 Marty: Wow. All good? Okay. Uh Mike Mowers, our white whale. We’ve been trying to get you on the show for a while.

0:50 Mike Mower: Well, I’m excited to be here, and it’s always good when you get to visit with Marty Carpenter. We go way back.

0:54 Marty: Well, let’s let’s help uh the general political public in Utah know more about the man, the myth, the legend, Mike Mower. And we’ve got to start from the very beginning.

1:02 Mike Mower: Mhm.

1:03 Marty: Because you are from a town, Brigadoon, Utah, is that right?

1:06 Mike Mower: Well, I was lucky to be raised in a town called Ferron, Utah.

1:10 Marty: Yeah, which I was convinced for the longest time didn’t really exist and you just made it up and it only appeared once every hundred years or so.

1:15 Mike Mower: The Ferron is a delightful community 41 mi south of Price, 10 mi south of Castledale, 14 mi north of Emery off of Highway 10. Great people, great community, fun place to grow up. I grew up there milking cows for the Lemons and going to San Rafael Elementary and Junior High and then we rode the bus to high school.

1:33 Marty: Were the Lemons a family? You weren’t trying to get lemons from the cows?

1:35 Mike Mower: The Lemons were the nice, are the nicest family in uh in Utah. Just a great family. So, I’d get up at 5:00 in the morning, go milk cows for them, go off to school, come back at night, keep it up again. It was a lot of fun.

1:46 Marty: What did you learn living and growing up in Ferron? How did that shape the Mike Mower we know?

1:49 Mike Mower: A lot of it is you really got to know your neighbors and the highs and the lows. Uh the town was small enough, you’d be thrilled when someone got a job, you’d be heartsick when the mines were laying off people. Uh the life revolved around the seasons, it was deer hunting in the fall and rounding up the cattle and in in the winter it was the neighbors were off snowmobiling. I mean, it was you you lived pretty close to nature. They call Ferron the town between the desert and the mountains, and that’s because it is. It’s a great place.

2:21 Marty: Yeah. Uh you don’t strike me as an outdoors guy. Were you an outdoors guy as a kid?

2:24 Mike Mower: I am not, in fact uh long-time chief of staff for Governor uh Gary Herbert, his name’s Justin Harding.

2:30 Marty: Uh-huh.

2:31 Mike Mower: Uh he referred to me as an indoorsman. And uh there may be some truth in that, but I appreciate those that appreciate the outdoors. So, hats off to them.

2:39 Marty: Yeah, I I’ve told people I’m not outdoorsy, but I am outsidey. Right? And I think the difference is uh availability of restrooms.

2:49 Mike Mower: Yes. Yeah, I’m I’m with you there.

2:51 Marty: Outsidey, it’s fine, but not not outdoorsy.

2:52 Mike Mower: Yeah, but no, I loved loved the people, loved the community. And I’m nothing flatters me more than when someone sends me a selfie from outside Ferron with uh the Ferron sign behind them. I get one of those a week and it’s fun to see.

3:03 Marty: And you’re known for the the selfies or just the photos that randomly show up from places. I get them occasionally from you from Kamas, which is where my dad grew up. And it seems like every time you roll into Kamas, bless your heart, I love them. I love getting them.

3:12 Mike Mower: I yeah, it’s instinctive. It’s like Pavlov’s dog. I can’t go to Kamas and not think of Marty, and I can’t think, oh, Marty’s going to want to know I’m passing through Kamas. And I do that, you know, if I’m passing through Parowan, John Cox has got to get a photo. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve stopped by the Fairview sign to send a selfie to the governor.

3:29 Marty: And every time I get one I think if you just drive two more two more blocks up away from Salt Lake, two more blocks I guess that’s east from that direction, uh you can take a picture of the actual like my grandparents’ property, which my dad always wants us to get a picture of because it’s his property.

3:43 Mike Mower: I will start doing that. You send me the coordinates, I will start doing that. We can do that.

3:45 Marty: Yeah, so I’ll send it I’ll drop you a pin so you know you’re up there. So, I I’m interested in like you grew up in a small town, you’ve mentioned like everybody knows everybody’s business and they cheer for each other. How did that help you or how did that lead you into a life in sort of public service and politics?

3:57 Mike Mower: I from a time I was a little kid was fascinated by government and politics. And I don’t know where it came from. My parents don’t know where it came from. They they would vote, they would host a cottage meeting or something, but they weren’t overtly political. I was always fascinated in politics, and what do you do about it when you’re in Ferron? Uh my parents, my dad would call up if there was a candidate coming through town, he’d invite him over for dinner. I remember a guy running for Congress named Howard Nielson who came and spent an hour with me because the county party chair had sent him over. I had mentors like Virginia Snow and Sam Singleton and Ralph Lemon who were involved in politics and gave me opportunities that you have available in a small town to kind of get involved.

4:36 Marty: What kind of opportunities?

4:37 Mike Mower: Well, with uh Mr. Singleton, uh he was our principal at the school, uh he was also the chairman of the Republican Party. So, I’d go with him to count votes or I’d go with him to caucus night. Virginia was the chairman of the Republican Party of Emery County, so she had invite me to give the player prayer or the pledge. Just as opportunities presented themselves, uh they would they would be sure to include this uh chatty 14, 15-year-old kid.

5:02 Marty: Yeah. Uh we know a lot of the same people, so I’ve asked some people what their impressions are, but I also know what a lot of people’s impressions are of Mike. And the one thing that everyone says is that I’m spooked. This part scares me, I need a drink to get through this.

5:08 Mike Mower: The one thing everybody says is that, yeah, take a check. And by the way, this is part of the Mike Mower, this is how you lure him to a podcast, is you have to have either Diet Dr. Pepper or Dr. Pepper Zero, so.

5:12 Marty: And I have to give credit to your predecessor in the governor’s office, uh Ally Isom.

5:22 Mike Mower: Ally Isom was the one who started me on Diet Dr. Pepper. I’ve

5:26 Marty: What did you drink before Diet Dr. Pepper, regular Dr. Pepper?

5:28 Mike Mower: Uh yeah, and then I had to make the break, and Ally got me on I’d never had a diet drink before a full can, and then Ally got me onto this. I have bought thousands of cans since then. So,

5:37 Marty: She should’ve told you two things: “try this” and “buy stock.”

5:40 Mike Mower: She should have, she should have. But I never do inside trading, I am squeaky clean, squeaky clean.

5:44 Marty: So, everybody says and I think uh anyone who’s been watching for the last 6 minutes would say, uh man, a relentlessly positive guy. Kind of an abnormality in politics, right? That people politics tends to make people competitive and a little bit divisive and like, “I’ve got this, but I want that,” and and sort of maneuvering around each other. You don’t do much of that, or I would say I would say any of that really, but I’m sure that there’s some of it. But you’re just like this relentlessly positive guy. Have you always been that way or is that something you had to work to become?

6:14 Mike Mower: Yep, kind of work out a little. I have I have a my dad was always very uh he’d go talk to anybody. We’d drive through a small town, he would stop, pick up the phone and call a missionary companion from 40 years ago. I mean, he was kind of the connector. My mom was the one who was relentlessly positive. She could always see the bright side in any circumstance and, “Oh well, this is nice,” and just kind of sweet, so kind of a combination of the two. And in politics it’s tough, but having been around long enough I’ve realized, oh, your adversary on one campaign’s going to be your buddy on the next. And um I I tell the story, several years ago Governor Herbert was running for re-election, and he was up against a guy named Peter Cooke whose lieutenant governor candidate was Vince Rampton.

7:00 Marty: This is the 2012 race.

7:02 Mike Mower: 2012 race, you were around for that. And you know how you get when when your opponents, but they ran an honorable campaign and we did didn’t, you know, there wasn’t any difficulties between us, which was really nice because um my daughter marries uh one of the Ramptons. And so, who’s there in the line with us? It’s Vince Rampton and Janice Rampton, and how now we’re family. And they were opponents to the governor on a political ticket, but now we’re family. And, you know, I’ve got case after case like that in Utah where we’ll disagree on a campaign or candidate and those those can get a little rambunctious, but for the most part you can find something to agree with on people if they want to find something to agree with. In short, maybe we could disagree better.

7:50 Marty: Disagree better.

7:51 Mike Mower: And I so I try to I try to practice that.

7:52 Marty: Uh that one’s in for the current boss, so you got you got that box checked right right there. Uh tell me about the family you grew up in though. Like, you’ve told me a little bit about your parents, but where do you fit amongst your siblings and did that have anything to drive with like, “I got to be the positive one because I’m this one”?

8:07 Mike Mower: No, I had I had three sisters, absolutely wonderful sisters, we’re very close to this day. They have always been really good.

8:13 Marty: Are you the oldest or where do you fall?

8:14 Mike Mower: I’m uh third.

8:15 Marty: Okay, so two older sisters, then you, and then a younger sister?

8:17 Mike Mower: Yeah, younger sister. And close, I talk to my siblings every day, or uh I have a sister in Tooele, her wonderful husband Myron put up 100 lawn signs for Governor Cox. That’s my love language, are are you helping out like that? So, the family’s been supportive of it. They’re not obsessed with it, which is a good healthy thing, but they’ve always been good to uh be supportive and they’re great Americans.

8:39 Marty: Yeah. Um you’ve got this really positive um I I’d say like happy bubbly personality, but that doesn’t mean that like you haven’t had your share of some tragedy in life. And you tell me if this is okay to talk about, if not we can always I guess cut around it.

8:52 Mike Mower: You know what, I I think we’ll skip that part.

8:55 Marty: Okay. All right, we’ll skip the negative part. Um but you’ve, you know, you’ve had you’ve had some in your in your life with some family, and how much has that helped you through some of the challenges you’ve had family-wise?

9:04 Mike Mower: It it has, and what he’s what what Marty’s alluding to and what I always um get through is I lost my first wife to cancer, and had four little kids in Provo, Utah. It’s funny, it’s been 20 years and it I still lose it. Um but you saw a lot of the best of humanity. I was working for Provo Mayor Lewis Billings at the time, he could not have been nicer. The Provo City Council, because we had just lived in Provo 2 years, but but the town really came together and helped us out. I’ve tried to pay that forward, people were so good to us. Um and then moved to Salt Lake, and I have to give hats off, this is kind of where the career moves on, um Jason Chaffetz was a friend of mine at BYU, we sat by each other in class in a BYU comms class, and I would try to go and support his events. It’s what I always tell people: “show up, if you’re interested in something, show up.” So, I would show up um got to be friends with Jason, kind of kept track of him over the years. I went to law school, practiced law for a few years, ran a congressional campaign, worked for a congressman, but hadn’t done a lot on the Huntsman campaign, and yet Jason called up and said, “Hey, do you want to work for Governor Huntsman if he wins?” And it was a real lifeline to me because I had four little kids, I needed help, my parents and sisters lived in Salt Lake, and it worked out that I came up and worked for Governor Huntsman. And it was just kind of an example to me of, oh, how nice people can be um when when you’re kind of needing some help, and again, I I try to play it forward. I try to support as many GoFundMes as I can, just because, you know, people were good to us. But

10:45 Marty: Okay, note: we’ll start one for the podcast. We’ll do it.

10:47 Mike Mower: We’ll we’ll do it. And can we get a donation? He’s a great guy, donate, donate. Yeah, Marty’s Marty’s awesome. Marty’s awesome.

10:53 Marty: I’m I’m wondering though, the reason I bring it up is I wonder if that like naturally friendly and happy um personality not only helped you sort of navigate that that real challenge, um but also like going into like more of a like, you know, a new marriage and a blended family and such, has that helped or or did your did did some of your kids find it annoying?

11:13 Mike Mower: The the kids the kids Liz and I, so I’m in I’m in uh governor’s office a year, one day Neil uh Ashdown, who was uh Governor uh Huntsman’s second chief of staff, uh I was the deputy chief of staff at the time, calls me in and closes the door. Anytime the chief of staff closes the door, you’re like, “What’s going down? Am I going down or is something else going down?”

11:34 Marty: Oh, I always thought, we’re about to get some good gossip here. We’re about to find out what’s really going on.

11:38 Mike Mower: Anyway, he said, “Hey, I need you to go out uh or you should,” not “I need you to,” he said, “Hey, you should go out with my wife’s best friend um Liz.” And I said, “Oh, I’ve,” you know, I hadn’t dated, I was like, “I’m not going to date, I’m, you know, I got four kids to raise.” He’s like, “No, you should really go out with Liz.” Well, I’m an at-will employee, so I’m like, “Oh, okay.” So, I went out with Liz, and she was a good sport to go out with me. I was not what was on her list of things she was looking for, but long story short, a year later we’re blending six kids and then adding a seventh.

12:08 Marty: Yeah, you wore her down.

12:09 Mike Mower: And so, she’s a saint. Liz is absolutely awesome. She’s a saint, she’s a lot of fun.

12:15 Marty: Um all right, I want to shift and talk a little bit about your career. Um but actually, I want to do I want one question before we transition from just like personal life that, because I think everyone deserves to hear the story. Uh you served a mission in Oregon.

12:26 Mike Mower: Portland, Oregon.

12:27 Marty: Portland, Oregon. And I want you to talk to me about how you not only uh proselytized but used public access television to advance your cause.

12:37 Mike Mower: I you know, I get to Oregon, my MTC district all goes to Spain, so I was like, “Oh my word, they’re all in Spain, I’m a Spanish-speaking Oregon guy, I learned like 20 words.” But it was a great experience. Um when I was there I thought, let’s start at the top. So, the first week I’m there, I’m an elder in Woodburn, Oregon, we’re close enough to Salem that I call the governor’s office and said, “Can we come and meet with the governor?” So, I went and met with Governor Victor Atiyeh um uh with our district leaders, Elder Jackman and Elder Johnson, Elder Cortez and I went in and

13:10 Marty: You just made an appointment with the governor.

13:11 Mike Mower: Made an appointment with the governor.

13:12 Marty: Didn’t clear that with the mission president, thought that’s in the zone.

13:14 Mike Mower: Well, it was in our zone. I didn’t break any rules. They may have created some rules after I’d been, but I didn’t break any rules. But so, um no, we went in and met with the governor. He was perfectly nice, perfectly nice. And I had put a $10 check to um the Republican Party of Oregon in Moroni 10:4, just out of curiosity to see if anybody would cash it, and lo and behold they did. And lo and behold later I learned that the governor’s secretary was LDS and that may have helped us get in. But on the on the wall of my office is a picture of Elder Mower hoping to convert Governor Victor Atiyeh and work his way down. Didn’t work quite like that. But then we got the idea, we were I was in Hillsboro and thought, by golly, there’s community access cable. And the rules said you couldn’t watch TV, but they didn’t say you couldn’t be on TV. Ah, there’s the lawyer. So, we uh went in in a little studio, and this is back when Wayne’s World was popular, Multnomah Cable went all over the Portland area, and hosted uh my television show, Nothing Doubting, with your host, Elder Mike Mower.

14:19 Marty: Nothing Daddying?

14:21 Mike Mower: Doubting. Oh, Doubting. Nothing Doubting. It was the name of Elder Sandoff’s journal. Yeah. So, you know, it was Elder Ericsson, uh I brought him on, and Elder Sandoff, the zone leader and the district leader. You bring them on, then of course they’re going to give you permission. Uh Elder Hell, uh my companion, was our executive producer. We did one episode that played over and over and over again because they needed content. And people all over saw it, and some were so excited they called the mission president to ask all about it. And the next thing you know, I’m transferred to Hood River and there’s no community access cable. But I did my part. I was before the church kind of did social media with missionaries, I like to think I was a trailblazer for my faith.

15:03 Marty: Yeah. A Portland Trail Blazer. There you go, see that’s how that works. Oh, you can see he’s a former sports caster. That’s right. Okay, so let’s I want to shift a little bit. Your current title is senior advisor of community and intergovernmental relations. We switched it, it’s too long, just community relations. Okay, so I was going to ask, what is what does the community and intergovernmental relations advisor provide?

15:25 Mike Mower: So, basically, I work a lot with community groups and a lot with um local government. So, as uh I was just telling you before we went on the air, this morning I was on the phone with uh Beaver County Commissioner Tammy Pearson, and over the weekend I’m in contact with the West Jordan Mayor uh Burton. I I mean, I I get to work with some of the nicest people all across Utah on some of their more challenging issues um and positive issues. West Jordan, you know, we’re talking about the rodeo. Beaver County, we’re working on how do you get funding to help fight the fire and help the county rebuild. So, it’s it’s I’ve really enjoyed it because I love local government. I spent 4 years at Provo City, so local government rocks.

16:08 Marty: I’ve joked with a lot of people, I’ve told the story a number of times and I say it, you know, in all kindness and joking, that when I got to the governor’s office, where we worked together in uh to December of 2013, it didn’t take me long to go, “I got the wrong job, I want Mower’ job.” Because here’s the difference between the two jobs: the communications director, which as you know, has work product. Like, you have to write things down and they have to be printed in a book and speeches get given and reporters have deadlines and you’ve got to figure out what to tell them and all of this stuff that’s like, there’s work product and deadlines.

16:42 Mike Mower: Yeah.

16:43 Marty: And it was like, oh, Mower comes into meetings, goes, “Hey, our friends at SITLA still love us. Okay, got to run, see you.” And he’d be gone, I was like, that’s the job I want.

16:51 Mike Mower: I I will say this, I’ve had several different positions in the governor’s office, including communications director for about 2 years for Governor Huntsman. That’s a tough job, and I say that to my friend Rob Carroll who has it now and Jennifer Napier-Pearce, there have been some awesome people fill that role. It’s a challenging job because you’re on 24/7 and your comments going to get reflected statewide and you’re not speaking on behalf of yourself, so if you misspeak, you’re you’re you’re representing the governor of the state of Utah. And so, it is a it is a tougher it is a tougher assignment as far as when it comes to um you know, having to be on point and on message and on time in representing the governor. Mine’s a lot more, I’m on the road. People are always like, “You’re traveling all over,” and I’m like, “Yeah, I am, because the governor um we’re we’re a state of 3.4 million people, there are a lot of requests that come in. If he can’t make those, a lot of times, and they still want someone, I’ll go.” So, a couple of weeks ago, I’m in Navajo Mountain. Well, it’s a 7-hour drive to Navajo Mountain. It’s well worth going there, um I they brought the last of the fiber optic cable, the last high school in Utah, Navajo Mountain High School, now is connected with fiber optic cable. It was a Herculean task by Emery Telcom and and their team. It’s well worth celebrating, but it’s at such a distance the governor just simply can’t make it to all of those.

18:21 Marty: You sound a little bit like, and I I know the term Secretary of State is in in many states is like the lieutenant governor. Like, it’s essentially the same role. But in the sense that like the President of the United States has a Secretary of State who goes out and deals with problems or relationships around the world and has a series of ambassadors, that at the state level that’s sort of concentrated right here.

18:43 Mike Mower: Well, it isn’t concentrated. We have all the governor has excellent cabinet officers and and their subject matter expertise. I mean, whether it’s uh Tracy Gruber at Health and Human Services or Carlos Braceras at UDOT, we I work with awesome people, but I am sent out and and that’s part of my part of my assignment. You know, I also oversee boards and commissions and constituent calls. We have 400 boards and commissions in our state. So, uh a lot of different boards out there to fill.

19:11 Marty: Yeah, so you get to go around to a a bunch of different groups. Like, I would think cabinet members sort of transportation handles the transportation and that can be anywhere in the state and everywhere in the state. But you’re the relationship guy and the and the, I would say, institutional knowledge guy, especially since, correct me if I’m wrong, so your first governor that you worked for was was Leavitt.

19:30 Mike Mower: Yeah, I worked for Leavitt on his campaign. Leavitt, I didn’t directly work for the lieutenant governor uh Olene Walker, who is a wonderful person, I might add, I love Olene. Uh but then worked full-time for Governor Huntsman and then Governor Herbert and now uh Governor Cox.

19:46 Marty: So, Leavitt campaign, not Leavitt administration, not Walker administration.

19:49 Mike Mower: Right.

19:50 Marty: But then in for Huntsman, Herbert, and Cox.

19:51 Mike Mower: Huntsman, Herbert, and Cox, yeah.

19:52 Marty: Yeah. All right, but either way like, you’re you’ve been around for a long time, that’s a lot of institutional knowledge.

19:56 Mike Mower: It’s it’s fun, and it’s a balance. Uh you at times you want new people, new ideas, new energy. I mean, Tyler Clancy just came over the administration from the legislature. He’s awesome. Uh

20:07 Marty: He’s a friend of the pod, he was our third guest.

20:09 Mike Mower: Was he your third guest? You were lucky to get him. Tyler’s uh Tyler’s awesome. Yeah. Um so, I work with a lot of wonderful people. Um but it is helpful to have somebody go, “Okay, well, we tried this in such and such year.” It was kind of for years kind of Lyle Hillyard played that role in the legislature where he had been there and he’d say, “Well, in 1987 we tried that in the downturn and here’s what happened.” So, it’s kind of every once in a while it’s helpful to uh you know, share some some recollections from the past.

20:34 Marty: Yeah, so what’d you do on the Leavitt campaign? And what’d you look and what’d you learn from that?

20:38 Mike Mower: Leavitt campaign, I was uh communications director. I became such a huge fan of Governor Mike Leavitt. I was brought on, he was uh forced into a primary and um I was brought on the next day and then he uh ran that fall against Bill Orton, and um I got into a motor home with him, we shrink-wrapped a motor home and uh Kelly Cassaday would drive it and we literally went all over the state, kind of reintroducing people to the governor and he had he had high approval ratings um and was working hard, uh but you got to remind people of that sometimes. And you got to get out there in the communities, and, you know, that’s kind of what we did.

21:18 Marty: So, it wasn’t Leavitt’s first first elect- it was his third.

21:21 Mike Mower: It was his third, it was yeah, third and final election. And he was he was awesome. I had been roommates with his brother David uh in BYU at the Jerusalem uh Center before it was the center, and so I kind of knew of the family and I had uh been a big fan of his when he was running for governor, so it was really cool to be able to uh do that. I took a leave uh from where I was practicing law at Legal Aid, they were very kind to give me some time off and and uh I was able to go and spend 6 months doing that, and then went from there to Provo City. But I have the utmost respect for Mike Leavitt. If I was trying to think of different things about different governors, he was a great visionary of kind of, where is Utah now, where do we fit in, where are we on the world stage? And he did a great job, and his team, um Natalie Gochnour and Vicki Varela and others of of taking and and Rich McKeown of course, all right we’ve got this chance to be on the world stage in the Olympics, how do we move Utah up to being a world a world community, you know, on the how do we how do we bring Utah up to the world stage? And and and that was huge, they did an excellent job with that.

22:36 Marty: Yeah. Um so, you’ve mentioned that Jason Chaffetz was your connection to the Huntsman administration.

22:42 Mike Mower: Yeah.

22:43 Marty: Tell me what you did for Governor Huntsman um and uh what you learned from that family.

22:47 Mike Mower: Governor Huntsman, a couple of different roles. Uh was the Leg Affairs director beginning and then went on uh as deputy chief of staff and then to a position, state planning coordinator, which was kind of a new position. I became the state’s Obama stimulus czar. Kind of a career killer if you’re a Republican. All of a sudden all this Obama money was coming in.

23:09 Marty: Is that how you list that job on LinkedIn right now?

23:11 Mike Mower: I I’ll tell you, I’ve had yeah, I am not running for anything at any time. Uh I dodged an election as of our HOA board last week, so I’m happy to just cheer from the sides. Um that one was interesting because everybody had a shovel-ready project and the downturn of the economy in ’08 and ’09 was very real and very challenging and it was, how do you how do you best deploy this money that’s coming in one time and um get projects and good results and so, it was a busy it was a busy year.

23:42 Marty: Yeah, what did you learn from working in the Huntsman administration?

23:45 Mike Mower: Uh Governor Huntsman, great fellow. He was a lot of fun. Liz and I were dating at the time, and and it was fun to be able to double date with John and Mary Kaye Huntsman and um ride around with them to events, and they’d give us advice as a a couple dating. Uh he was there to speak at our wedding reception. Yeah, he was uh he was they he was a class act. I I enjoyed working for him and Mary Kaye, everybody loves Mary Kaye. She’s just a delightful person.

24:14 Marty: Absolutely. So, Governor Huntsman goes on to uh work for your boss, Obama, in China.

24:25 Mike Mower: That’s that’s the kind of comment that gets you into trouble. That’s a good kind of comment. That’s that’s how we know what the clip to put on social media. Uh so, he went, no, I remember being in the room one day, we’re in uh what’s called the Rampton Boardroom, which is a Governor’s Office Boardroom, get a knock at the door. In they come, and they pull the governor out. They said, “You’re wanted on the phone.” Well, there’s only a couple of people that the governor leaves his meeting for to take a phone call from, and that’s when we realized, oh, this this might be it, and it was. And that’s when again um there was a several-month transition period and then then lieutenant governor Gary Herbert became Governor Gary Herbert.

25:06 Marty: Yeah. Um and you would just kind of stayed on through that transition.

25:10 Mike Mower: Yeah, stayed on, and uh uh Governor Herbert um

25:15 Marty: What was that like going through a transition like that? Because you guys had your mind like you said, it was quick.

25:18 Mike Mower: That one was a little different because you couldn’t say anything and the the Governor Huntsman couldn’t say anything, and so it was a it was a it was a unique time because he’s he’s prohibited from saying anything while the confirmation process is going on, so who’s who’s kind of in charge? Well, it was of course Governor Huntsman, but you couldn’t be uh as public um you had to be a little more uh circumspect in your comments to the public, that sort of stuff. So, anyway, it was an interest it was an interesting time, and then Gary Herbert came on, and Gary and Jeanette are absolutely incredible people, just awesome, just a lot of fun to work um for several years uh with him and um you know, he remains a a great friend of the state.

26:07 Marty: What’s your best Gary Herbert story?

26:09 Mike Mower: There are so many, but they’re all inspiring and uplifting. Um I mean, he he was That’s how you stick around for four administrations right there. That’s but he really was, I never always say, I never give an insincere compliment. I never give an insincere compliment. He was just a good good man and um he he had I remember he had had a he had a great run as governor, it’s the last week of the last session and we’re sitting around a table, and I’m with um Derek and Justin and and Bob Henry and and the then lieutenant governor Spencer Cox and Governor Herbert, we’re talking about issues and someone pulls up their phone and looks down and says, “There’s this virus going on in China, I wonder if it’s going to be an issue.” And that defined the next 9 months. Within a week it had come to Utah and you had Rudy Gobert, and it was a very, very tough time to govern, and we had been kind of like, what does a governor do after the last of the legislative session, his last year? I mean, do you go tour the state or do you go visit um different proj- I mean, kind of what do you do?

27:21 Marty: Do you finally get him to Ferron?

27:23 Mike Mower: Uh true story, true story. Governor Governor Herbert um was doing the math and realized he had been to Ferron five times in 3 years and I got booted off the team that did the He’s like, “Mike, I don’t need to go to Ferron for the Cub Scout dinner.” I love the Cub Scouts, but I you know, that’s a long drive down and back for So, I was kind of booted off the scheduling team um when they finally realized that all roads didn’t necessarily need to go to Ferron all the time. So, which tried to get him out there, but Governor Herbert was great because he was everywhere. I mean, the story was, oh, if you had an an event with Republicans, he he’d go. He’d go to all sorts of meetings all day long.

28:07 Marty: I think the phrase was wherever there are two or more Republicans gathered there is Gary Herbert, right? And and and I’m going to just say annoyingly, couldn’t get him out of there. Right, no, true story. I’m in uh Carbon County Lincoln Day Dinner in uh Price. We’re at the old Elks Lodge down there and he speaks, a couple more speakers, and those evenings, you know, everybody gets a chance at the mic and it’s 9:00 and literally everybody was gone, and at 9:45 the governor’s still visiting with a nice fellow from Helper who drove down to talk about a specific issue. The custodian finally comes up to me and says, “Will you guys please leave? I want to go home.” And I had to move the conversation outside.

28:16 Mike Mower: Right, no, true story. I’m in uh Carbon County Lincoln Day Dinner in uh Price. We’re at the old Elks Lodge down there and he speaks, a couple more speakers, and those evenings, you know, everybody gets a chance at the mic and it’s 9:00 and literally everybody was gone, and at 9:45 the governor’s still visiting with a nice fellow from Helper who drove down to talk about a specific issue. The custodian finally comes up to me and says, “Will you guys please leave? I want to go home.” And I had to move the conversation outside.

28:50 Marty: And not an isolated incident because I know uh I flew with him once to DC and he was there for a bunch of National Governors Association meetings, but the first stop we landed and we went like directly to, uh I think it was the natural gas building and uh there was a reception there for uh now the late Mia Love who had just been elected to Congress and had just been sworn in, if I recall. And we go in and it’s the same thing. In fact, we’re in the elevator and it’s it’s me, uh my business partner West Smith was with us and then uh uh the governor and he just said, “Hey, I’m tired after this flight, let’s let’s try to keep this one short.” And I was like, “Great, let’s do it, like I know where this is headed.” I guess that’s for this is. And so, like being a good staff member like, we kind of rotated in like, “Governor, we need to move you here.” And he stayed, and the same deal we’re there as they’re putting chairs up. You’re like, I cannot get this guy out of here. I was going to have to go buy a chocolate banana shake and see if I could lure him out.

29:48 Mike Mower: He he was so good to spend so much time with people and just and just love doing it. His his mantra was, “conservative in principle, um moderate in tone, inclusive in process,” and he really worked hard to bring people around the table and um do that.

30:05 Marty: Even when they put that table away. Still was there trying to bring him to the table, bring the table back I got to bring some people to the table. Okay, uh last one because we’re making our way through governors. Uh tell me about the current boss. What do you what do you like about working for Spencer Cox?

30:11 Mike Mower: Table back, yeah, he was he was awesome.

30:21 Mike Mower: I love Spencer Cox, I love working for Spencer Cox. He um part of my thing has been driving around the state and if I’m at a county commission meeting somewhere and you’re passing through a town, um I try to stop in and visit with people all over to kind of get the pulse of what’s going on in the state. Years ago, I’d stop in if I was ever passing through Fairview, I’d stop in to say hi to first Fairview Mayor, then Fairview County Commissioner, um or Sanpete County Commissioner, Spencer Cox. “Hey, what’s going down in Fairview? What’s going down in rural Utah?” He is super smart. Um he’s brilliant. He he writes his own material, he writes uh he he’s an excellent writer, great wordsmith, great thinker. Um I can’t say enough nice about Governor Cox. So, I’ve had opportunities at different places, times to go different places, I’m like, I love working for these governors, I love Utah, I love meeting the people of Utah. And and Governor Cox and especially Abby Cox have been no exception. I mean, they’re just quality people who do a wonderful job representing our state uh not only at at the state level, but certainly at the national level, whether he’s the head of NGA or uh he just finished up a turn as chair of the Western Governors Association. I mean, he’s he he’s a class act.

31:42 Marty: So, after all these years working in various administrations, what’s the one habit that you have built that you’ve worked to build uh that makes you better at your job?

31:51 Mike Mower: Um I try uh well, I try. I I hard-working and an honest, I love what I do, but um I try to work really hard to to spread the news, to represent Utah well, to represent the governor’s office well. I’ve and it’s it’s made all the easier because I’ve had really wonderful colleagues. I’ve been in political offices where the the internal politics of the office itself were so combative and people were jealous of each other and, you know, complaining against each other that you kind of dreaded going to work. Since I’ve been in the governor’s office, uh there’s been a culture set there that that just does not exist. There’s I’ve been there a long time, there’s not backbiting, there’s not, you know, the senior advisors we all cheer each other on. We’ve got a, you know, we’ve had I’ve worked for several great chiefs of staff while I’ve been there. Um I I look at our our current chief of staff John Pierpont, a you know, it’s a tricky job. You’re managing your senior staff, the governor’s schedule, and 24 cabinet officers. It’s it’s a lot of work, but they he does an excellent job at it. They’ve been great to work with, very supportive of each other. It’s as I say, I I love Utah, I love our governors, it’s it’s fun to go to work and spread their messages.

33:14 Marty: Yeah, you mentioned that Jason Chaffetz was your connection to the Huntsman administration.

33:19 Mike Mower: Yeah.

33:20 Marty: Tell me what you did for Governor Huntsman um and uh what you learned from that family.

33:24 Mike Mower: Governor Huntsman, a couple of different roles. Uh was the Leg Affairs director beginning and then went on uh as deputy chief of staff and then to a position, state planning coordinator, which was kind of a new position. I became the state’s Obama stimulus czar. Kind of a career killer if you’re a Republican. All of a sudden all this Obama money was coming in.

33:46 Marty: Is that how you list that job on LinkedIn right now?

33:48 Mike Mower: I I’ll tell you, I’ve had yeah, I am not running for anything at any time. Uh I dodged an election as of our HOA board last week, so I’m happy to just cheer from the sides. Um that one was interesting because everybody had a shovel-ready project and the downturn of the economy in ’08 and ’09 was very real and very challenging and it was, how do you how do you best deploy this money that’s coming in one time and um get projects and good results and so, it was a busy it was a busy year.

34:19 Marty: Yeah, what did you learn from working in the Huntsman administration?

34:22 Mike Mower: Uh Governor Huntsman, great fellow. He was a lot of fun. Liz and I were dating at the time, and and it was fun to be able to double date with John and Mary Kaye Huntsman and um ride around with them to events, and they’d give us advice as a a couple dating. Uh he was there to speak at our wedding reception. Yeah, he was uh he was they he was a class act. I I enjoyed working for him and Mary Kaye, everybody loves Mary Kaye. She’s just a delightful person.

34:51 Marty: Absolutely. So, Governor Huntsman goes on to uh work for your boss, Obama, in China.

35:02 Mike Mower: That’s that’s the kind of comment that gets you into trouble. That’s a good kind of comment. That’s that’s how we know what the clip to put on social media. Uh so, he went, no, I remember being in the room one day, we’re in uh what’s called the Rampton Boardroom, which is a Governor’s Office Boardroom, get a knock at the door. In they come, and they pull the governor out. They said, “You’re wanted on the phone.” Well, there’s only a couple of people that the governor leaves his meeting for to take a phone call from, and that’s when we realized, oh, this this might be it, and it was. And that’s when again um there was a several-month transition period and then then lieutenant governor Gary Herbert became Governor Gary Herbert.

35:43 Marty: Yeah. Um and you would just kind of stayed on through that transition.

35:47 Mike Mower: Yeah, stayed on, and uh uh Governor Herbert um

35:52 Marty: What was that like going through a transition like that? Because you guys had your mind like you said, it was quick.

35:55 Mike Mower: That one was a little different because you couldn’t say anything and the the Governor Huntsman couldn’t say anything, and so it was a it was a it was a unique time because he’s he’s prohibited from saying anything while the confirmation process is going on, so who’s who’s kind of in charge? Well, it was of course Governor Huntsman, but you couldn’t be uh as public um you had to be a little more uh circumspect in your comments to the public, that sort of stuff. So, anyway, it was an interest it was an interesting time, and then Gary Herbert came on, and Gary and Jeanette are absolutely incredible people, just awesome, just a lot of fun to work um for several years uh with him and um you know, he remains a a great friend of the state.

36:44 Marty: What’s your best Gary Herbert story?

36:46 Mike Mower: There are so many, but they’re all inspiring and uplifting. Um I mean, he he was That’s how you stick around for four administrations right there. That’s but he really was, I never always say, I never give an insincere compliment. I never give an insincere compliment. He was just a good good man and um he he had I remember he had had a he had a great run as governor, it’s the last week of the last session and we’re sitting around a table, and I’m with um Derek and Justin and and Bob Henry and and the then lieutenant governor Spencer Cox and Governor Herbert, we’re talking about issues and someone pulls up their phone and looks down and says, “There’s this virus going on in China, I wonder if it’s going to be an issue.” And that defined the next 9 months. Within a week it had come to Utah and you had Rudy Gobert, and it was a very, very tough time to govern, and we had been kind of like, what does a governor do after the last of the legislative session, his last year? I mean, do you go tour the state or do you go visit um different proj- I mean, kind of what do you do?

37:58 Marty: Do you finally get him to Ferron?

38:00 Mike Mower: Uh true story, true story. Governor Governor Herbert um was doing the math and realized he had been to Ferron five times in 3 years and I got booted off the team that did the He’s like, “Mike, I don’t need to go to Ferron for the Cub Scout dinner.” I love the Cub Scouts, but I you know, that’s a long drive down and back for So, I was kind of booted off the scheduling team um when they finally realized that all roads didn’t necessarily need to go to Ferron all the time. So, which tried to get him out there, but Governor Herbert was great because he was everywhere. I mean, the story was, oh, if you had an an event with Republicans, he he’d go. He’d go to all sorts of meetings all day long.

38:44 Marty: I think the phrase was wherever there are two or more Republicans gathered there is Gary Herbert, right? And and and I’m going to just say annoyingly, couldn’t get him out of there. Right, no, true story. I’m in uh Carbon County Lincoln Day Dinner in uh Price. We’re at the old Elks Lodge down there and he speaks, a couple more speakers, and those evenings, you know, everybody gets a chance at the mic and it’s 9:00 and literally everybody was gone, and at 9:45 the governor’s still visiting with a nice fellow from Helper who drove down to talk about a specific issue. The custodian finally comes up to me and says, “Will you guys please leave? I want to go home.” And I had to move the conversation outside.

39:27 Mike Mower: Right, no, true story. I’m in uh Carbon County Lincoln Day Dinner in uh Price. We’re at the old Elks Lodge down there and he speaks, a couple more speakers, and those evenings, you know, everybody gets a chance at the mic and it’s 9:00 and literally everybody was gone, and at 9:45 the governor’s still visiting with a nice fellow from Helper who drove down to talk about a specific issue. The custodian finally comes up to me and says, “Will you guys please leave? I want to go home.” And I had to move the conversation outside.

39:27 Marty: And not an isolated incident because I know uh I flew with him once to DC and he was there for a bunch of National Governors Association meetings, but the first stop we landed and we went like directly to, uh I think it was the natural gas building and uh there was a reception there for uh now the late Mia Love who had just been elected to Congress and had just been sworn in, if I recall. And we go in and it’s the same thing. In fact, we’re in the elevator and it’s it’s me, uh my business partner West Smith was with us and then uh uh the governor and he just said, “Hey, I’m tired after this flight, let’s let’s try to keep this one short.” And I was like, “Great, let’s do it, like I know where this is headed.” I guess that’s for this is. And so, like being a good staff member like, we kind of rotated in like, “Governor, we need to move you here.” And he stayed, and the same deal we’re there as they’re putting chairs up. You’re like, I cannot get this guy out of here. I was going to have to go buy a chocolate banana shake and see if I could lure him out.

40:25 Mike Mower: He he was so good to spend so much time with people and just and just love doing it. His his mantra was, “conservative in principle, um moderate in tone, inclusive in process,” and he really worked hard to bring people around the table and um do that.

40:42 Marty: Even when they put that table away. Still was there trying to bring him to the table, bring the table back I got to bring some people to the table. Okay, uh last one because we’re making our way through governors. Uh tell me about the current boss. What do you what do you like about working for Spencer Cox?

40:48 Mike Mower: Table back, yeah, he was he was awesome.

40:58 Mike Mower: I love Spencer Cox, I love working for Spencer Cox. He um part of my thing has been driving around the state and if I’m at a county commission meeting somewhere and you’re passing through a town, um I try to stop in and visit with people all over to kind of get the pulse of what’s going on in the state. Years ago, I’d stop in if I was ever passing through Fairview, I’d stop in to say hi to first Fairview Mayor, then Fairview County Commissioner, um or Sanpete County Commissioner, Spencer Cox. “Hey, what’s going down in Fairview? What’s going down in rural Utah?” He is super smart. Um he’s brilliant. He he writes his own material, he writes uh he he’s an excellent writer, great wordsmith, great thinker. Um I can’t say enough nice about Governor Cox. So, I’ve had opportunities at different places, times to go different places, I’m like, I love working for these governors, I love Utah, I love meeting the people of Utah. And and Governor Cox and especially Abby Cox have been no exception. I mean, they’re just quality people who do a wonderful job representing our state uh not only at at the state level, but certainly at the national level, whether he’s the head of NGA or uh he just finished up a turn as chair of the Western Governors Association. I mean, he’s he he’s a class act.

42:19 Marty: So, after all these years working in various administrations, what’s the one habit that you have built that you’ve worked to build uh that makes you better at your job?

42:28 Mike Mower: Um I try uh well, I try. I I hard-working and an honest, I love what I do, but um I try to work really hard to to spread the news, to represent Utah well, to represent the governor’s office well. I’ve and it’s it’s made all the easier because I’ve had really wonderful colleagues. I’ve been in political offices where the the internal politics of the office itself were so combative and people were jealous of each other and, you know, complaining against each other that you kind of dreaded going to work. Since I’ve been in the governor’s office, uh there’s been a culture set there that that just does not exist. There’s I’ve been there a long time, there’s not backbiting, there’s not, you know, the senior advisors we all cheer each other on. We’ve got a, you know, we’ve had I’ve worked for several great chiefs of staff while I’ve been there. Um I I look at our our current chief of staff John Pierpont, a you know, it’s a tricky job. You’re managing your senior staff, the governor’s schedule, and 24 cabinet officers. It’s it’s a lot of work, but they he does an excellent job at it. They’ve been great to work with, very supportive of each other. It’s as I say, I I love Utah, I love our governors, it’s it’s fun to go to work and spread their messages.

43:51 Marty: Relationship guy. Relationships matter, that’s what it comes down to. Yeah. All right, we’re running short on time, so I want to finish with the lightning round. Okay, you ready for the lightning round? Some big questions for you. Okay, uh Ferron plug, let’s start here. If you had 24 hours to take someone to your Ferron, what are the top three stops?

43:55 Mike Mower: Okay, lightning round. Yes. I better grab a little quick drink first. Yeah, take a sip while we get ready for the lightning round.

44:06 Mike Mower: Well, Millsite Reservoir for water skiing, uh Millsite uh Golf Course to play on Utah’s most incredible golf course, and a trip uh down memory lane to Lemons’ Dairy.

44:21 Marty: Okay, all of those uh sound like a lot of fun. I would have my friend Hallie right beside us to show us around. Um you meet with a lot of people, you met with a lot of people over the years. Uh talk to me about a Utah power lunch, where are you going and what are you ordering?

44:23 Mike Mower: And I would have my friend Hallie right beside us to show us around.

44:31 Mike Mower: Utah power lunch, we’re going to Hires Big H, and I’m getting the Big H, the Roquefort Big H.

44:40 Marty: Okay, what’s the Roquefort Big H?

44:41 Mike Mower: Well, it has blue cheese on it. But it’s kind of the fancy word for blue cheese.

44:45 Marty: The blue blue cheese okay.

44:46 Mike Mower: And it’s on, yeah, next time we go to Hires, you’ll you’ll want that. It’s good stuff, good stuff, I love Hires. Very non-Ferron word for you. Uh what’s a song that instantly resets your mood?

44:54 Mike Mower: Um “500 Miles.”

44:58 Marty: Oh, wow. I don’t know, I don’t know, I like “500 Miles.” Okay, don’t sing it because we can’t pay for it. So, we don’t we keep it under 12 seconds or we’ll have to pay for it. Uh what’s the most underrated skill for surviving in a governor’s office?

45:00 Mike Mower: I don’t know, I don’t know, I like “500 Miles.” singing

45:11 Mike Mower: Um empathy, I don’t know. I I try I really, people come to you at their most challenging moments, and and whether they’re behind on a check or they’ve got a family member incarcerated, I really try to empathize, at the very least sympathize with what they’re going through and try to help them out.

45:32 Marty: So, wrong answer. Oh. The right answer is: always check with the communications director first. That’s the right answer. Um all right, what’s the funniest professional move you’ve seen someone to try to pull in Utah politics?

45:36 Mike Mower: Oh, yeah.

45:47 Mike Mower: Oh, I could I could that I’m saving that one for my book, I’m saving that one. Yeah.

45:51 Marty: Okay, that’s a non- All right, I’ll pivot to okay, what’s the title of the book?

45:54 Mike Mower: The uh Also on Board.

45:57 Marty: Also on Board. I know exactly where that’s coming from.

45:58 Mike Mower: I used to say it was, and I’m not writing a book, but I used to say to Governor Herbert all the time because we’d be flying on that state plane and people think, “Ooh, fancy state plane.” The old one was a little, and I thought, here’s what’s going to happen, heaven forbid the plane goes down, as it regrettably has for other governors, and yeah, Governor Herbert would get the headline and I would get the Also on board, Bob the pilot, Mike the Mike the PR guy.

46:21 Marty: Yeah, uh two things from that then: one, yes, the state plane is small, and it’s the first time when you’re on it and the wind blows that you can see you feel like your tail move. It’s not like flying on a big plane, in any way. And the second thing is I just want to call attention to that, you said you’re not writing a book and that’s because, Mike, that requires work product, and that’s not your thing. So, that’s just how that goes. Uh all right, last one: what is the best piece of advice that you would give a younger Mike Mower to help him succeed in his career?

46:50 Mike Mower: I talk to a lot of people and it’s like, relationships matter. And you build relationships by being honest with people, by being direct with people, uh not just telling them what they want to hear, but sometimes what they need to hear, but there’s a nice way to do that. And um work on relationships because you’ll be back together again and you all share the common goal: loving Utah, loving America, loving your fellow man.

47:19 Marty: Mike, you’re a good man, thanks for doing this. May all of your Diet Dr. Peppers be chilled and crispy.

47:22 Mike Mower: Thanks, thanks, honor to be here. Cheers.

47:24 Marty: Thanks, Mike. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

47:27 Mike Mower: Thank you so much, have a great afternoon.

47:29 Marty: Okay. All right, it’s a wrap. Should we record one?