Coming up on this episode of Back Channel, we are offscript and on record with Representative Cal Roberts of the Utah House. We’re going to talk to him about his professional background in high finance and how that helps him in his service as a legislator. We’re going to talk about the state budget and how he understands that again because of that background. Plus, we’re going to talk to him about his efforts to cut the gas tax during the last session and all that went into that. Uh we’re going to talk about that plus his uh efforts to brainwash his kids into being Dodger fans. That’s coming up next on this episode of Back Channel. This is the Back Channel. Back channel. You didn’t hear this from me. Back channel. Hey, you’re not going to quote me, are you? What channel is it on? Back channel. Offscript on record. Representative Cal Roberts, thanks for being with us. I’m glad to be here. Uh, you know, we’d say it’s who do you want to sit down and have a a root beer with? This isn’t root beer. I went Coke Zero. What’ you go with? I went with a Coke Zero. I just matched you. Okay. Is that your choice or I’m not a big soda guy. Like I know my Utah bonafidees now are not there, but you know, I just figured that these guys were sponsoring or endorsing your show or something. No. If wishing makes it so. So, uh, we went with the big soda. And the trick is you this interview’s not over till you finish that. Oh jeez. Okay, just kidding. Actually, if we get you to drink the whole thing and then wait you out, you’ll have to use the restroom soda. We’re going to get some really candid answers as we go. Um, I appreciate you coming. One thing I wanted to talk to you about is, you know, I think about the legislature and it feels like we’ve got some lawyers, we have some real estate developers, we have some like ranchers and farmers. I don’t know that I that it jumps to my mind to say we’ve got a lot of financial guys and that’s sort of your background. So, the first question is nothing to do with the legislature. I want to know do you say finance or finance? Finance. Finance. Yeah. That’s that’s the best way to connect with the people is, you know, say I work in high finance, but no. Yeah, we would say high high finance. If you wanted to like show off for your mom and and her friends, you know, you’d say I work in high finance. High finance. And I I noticed no um like fleece uh vest today, so you must the finance bro vest. Yeah. I hope you’re comfortable wearing what you’ve got because we didn’t see the vest show up. But not a lot of guys with that background necessarily on the hill. Or maybe I’m wrong and you can correct me on that. But I’m wondering how a a background in that particular area helps you when your job is at least in part to help figure out how to spend $30 billion every year. Yeah, I think it gives you a unique perspective because if you understand how money works, you you kind of can understand how power works. And when you’re at a legislature in politics, it’s important to understand how the money works. So, I do think it it was helpful. I’ll I’ll tell you a story though. One thing that was interesting. So, I started my career out with a bank called Credit Swiss and I’m an analyst. You are like a grunt, right? You’re in the Excel model. You’re bringing the PowerPoint presentations uh to the meetings. But what’s unique about it is you get to sit in rooms with CEOs uh members of the board of large public and private companies. And I I remember a particular time we were advising a company called American Apparel which I don’t know if you know if you remember American Apparel big hip clothing company they went out of business actually but at the time we were helping them through a restructuring of their debt and just in terms of the perspective it gives you in politics I’ll bring it around but at the time they were making all of their clothes in California in Los Angeles which is where this was at. And at the time, the mayor and city council of Los Angeles raised the minimum wage and, you know, wanting to help lower middle- class people in in LA. So, I was in the room sitting there, you know, with my laptop taking notes. And I’m listening to the CEO talk about how that policy at the local government level was going to impact their workforce. And he was talking about how they’re going to have to reduce uh their workforce and cut heads and actually lay people off. And it it taught me a lesson and I think it’s it’s helpful with government just the unintended consequences of government policy and really how government interacts and interplays with the private sector. So I think it certainly has been a given me a unique lens on which to view politics in Utah. Does that analytical um posture or that background help you say okay a I know there’s a ripple effect to decisions we make and b does it help you understand like how far out in those ripples you have to worry about or does does it how does it help you or hurt you I guess well yeah I mean like so much of what the legislature does we set policy but we also set a budget we’re in charge of the budget as you pointed out $30 billion and if you can get your arms around how that budget works and how money works. Let’s take transportation funding for example. It that’s a critical thing. If you want to play in the transportation space, you need to understand how it’s financed, how we pay for it. And I do think having a the just the financial background coming from Wall Street, seeing that business perspective gives me a unique approach to that and helps me see things maybe that I otherwise wouldn’t see. Do you feel like that helped you when you got there for the first time? like it feels like there are people who get to the Hill and they take two or three sessions, maybe even two terms in the House to start to figure out the budget and sort of all the pieces. And a lot of people, I think, finish their time in the legislature and don’t fully grasp what goes into making the budget. I would think that’s a tremendous advantage as a freshman to get up there and be like, I get how this works and the power is really in where the budget is set. You know, you can make policy changes on things and those certainly are impactful, but how much of an advantage was that to get up there and be like, “All right, budgeting, I get this.” And even though these are big numbers and it’s a complicated process that you get it. Well, I want to be clear like I’m only secondyear, you know, legislator, so I’m still a freshman. Well, there will be a quiz on the budget. I’m learning I’m learning a lot and there’s still there’s still a lot to learn. The budget is complicated, but did you feel it was an advant like you had a head start over someone who doesn’t have It helps if you know how numbers work. Absolutely. like that’s what drives so much of our society in the world, let alone our politics. And so I I do think it helped me particularly I’ve always been interested in the transportation infrastructure space and it’s complicated how we finance that space and so I I do think having the financial tools you know lend it gave me a a maybe a slight head start in figuring that policy out but at the end of the day you know I think it’s helpful but it’s it’s not like we’ve got great we’ve got people with all kinds of backgrounds who can get their minds around the budget. Yeah. So your early career in in finance, high finance we’ll say. Um did that have you living like did you live in New York and work sort of in the way people are picturing that when we talk about high finance? Yeah, I started with a company called Patriarch Partners. They would do distressed uh acquisition. So they would buy companies for pennies on the dollar. They would come in, install new management, new operationals like it was kind of a turnaround type shop. Uh but I spent most my time at a firm called Credit Swiss and I was in New York and then relocated to Los Angeles. So, I started in New York um but then ended up spending most of my time in Los Angeles working with technology media companies on the west coast. How’s that transition to what you do professionally now? That’s a good question. So, I was at I was at uh credit suites for five six years and and got great experience seeing how p big large private public companies uh interact, you know, work, transactions, how that works. But ultimately I got the itch to want to start and do my own thing. Like there’s only so much that you can take, you know, being the PowerPoint Excel guy. Now we’re speaking Republican. Now you’re an entrepreneur. Tell me more about that. Well, yeah. So So I I came back to Utah. Yeah. And I was about 29, 30 years old. And we started a basically a holding company of gyms and quicks service restaurants. So we opened up several uh boutique fitness studios or gyms in Salt Lake County and Utah County. at at at the peak employed 50 people. I sold that business right before COVID hit which was hugely fortuitous because you can imagine co was not friendly to the gym business. Um and then took a break and then ultimately got into the city council at Draper and that’s that was the start. So that’s your transition into politics city council. Tell me about your experience at city council because I I look at that and go that’s uh that’s not for the faint of heart, right? That’s essentially signing up for your neighbors to hate you for something for one thing or another, right? It’s like Yeah. It’s like being it’s like being on an HOA except like with a lot more work and a lot more people. Yeah. No, I so it’s funny. So sold that company. Um I was on this board called the Traverse Ridge Special Service District. So, it’s a special service district where it’s a part of Draper where you pay additional taxes for additional services that the city doesn’t provide. Where I lived in Draper at the time, we were at a higher elevation. So, we actually had to pay more for snow plow removal and road maintenance. And at the time, there was a major road in Draper called Traverse Ridge Drive um up up on the mountain there in Corner Canyon. And it hadn’t been fixed or repaired in 15 20 years. And so I got involved just thinking, you know, I care about my community and neighborhood. I’ve been interested in politics. Let me that maybe this is a good way to dip my foot in. And I quickly realized that in order to figure out how to solve this road problem, the real power ultimately sat with the city council. And at the time, the special service district was in this big dispute, this legal dispute with the city. It was highly latigious. And there was politicians, I would say, at the city council who who seem to want their politics to be much more about performance rather than the results. So they seem to care much more about how many likes or retweets or, you know, Facebook interactions that that they would get than actually solving problems. And so I thought to myself, number one, I want to fix this road. Number two, um, you know, I I want to focus on real results. So I ran. I was 29 30 at the time. There were 12 other candidates. Looking back, I have no honestly I have no idea why I did it because I wouldn’t I just didn’t I don’t I didn’t think I was going to win, frankly. Open seat. There was three seats. So, 12 candidates, three seats. Anyways, I I just started knocking doors, talking to neighbors, and primary came along. I was I was in fifth place, so I made the cut to the general, and I thought, “Hey, okay, just got to keep working harder.” So, I just went on a blitz, worked hard, knocked a lot of doors, and ultimately eaked out a win and and filled that third seat. And that was the the start of politics. Pretty much everyone we’ve had on the show so far who has won an election. Boils it down to that. Like, I just got out and talked to people and knocked on doors and made the difference that way. Did you enjoy that kind of campaign? Yeah. Oh, I loved it. And did and did it inform like sort of your positions because you’re running sort of on one issue. Did it help you understand broadly or more broadly what everyone was interested in? Yeah. The reality about politics is so much of it happens at the local level. And it seems big and scary, but the reality is is that when you run in these races, it’s just talking to your neighbors. If you are willing to go out there, knock on doors, ask your neighbors what’s on the top of their mind. Um I I think you know you have a tremendous chance to win. But it also informs the way you govern because you hear it’s one thing to see a poll and to see what is on the tops of people’s minds. It’s another thing to have hundreds and hundreds thousands of conversations with your neighbors. You get a really good sense for what are the issues top of mind. Yeah, polling can help because it gives you sort of a broad scope, right? And if you go talk to people, if you talk to a hundred, 100 is not a very big sample size. It feels like a lot when you’re knocking doors. How do you balance that when you can say like, “Ah, poll may be telling me something, but I’m talking to these people and they’re telling me something. This one may be giving me like a broader representation, but this is where I’m feeling the passion.” Yeah. I mean, look, I polls work. When you’re running at a local race, it’s tough to get good quality polling data. So, I mean, your best polling data is at times to just go talk on the doors to because you need to get like 800 people to get into a sure plus or minus 4% something like that. 800 people is a lot of doors to knock, right? There was a lot of like good responses to get in a smaller geographic area anyway. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. I mean, I I I don’t think you can replace We hear about some of the politicians at the national level who who who who watch polls, you know, and govern based on what the polls say. I think that I’m sure that works scientifically. You’ve probably had a lot of experience in the space, but I don’t think you can replace the need to also have just direct one-on-one communication. And that could be in town halls, you know, but I think being on the door talking to voters directly is irreplaceable. How do you how do you make sure that you’re listening when you go there? Like I think you knock on a door and someone comes out and they may you ask them a question, they may start telling you. I think there’s a tendency for a lot of just people generally, candidates in some cases to get defensive. Like suddenly I need to defend my position and I now I’m trying to convince you as opposed to listening. How have you found a balance in that when you go knock on someone’s door where you say, “I really just need to listen to what this person’s saying instead of like I got to win a vote here.” Yeah. I mean, I to be honest with you, I find that that the best way to oftentimes win a vote is to listen. And people want to be heard. I think if you look at the electorate here in Utah and across the country and just the relationship between us, the people, and our our elected officials, oftenimes we feel like we’re not being heard. And I think there’s a diminishing of trust in our institutions throughout the state and the country because I think often times our leaders aren’t listening. And so I mean honestly like I I would just say hey I’m I’m I’m running I’m Cal Roberts. What’s top of mind for you? What’s important for you? And then usually you can find common ground and you can build on it and you can have a great conversation. Yeah. How long were you on the city council? Five years. Okay. And then from there, how do you make the transition to say, I’m gonna go run for quote unquote the next thing to go run for the house? Yeah. Well, yeah, I felt at the time I felt, you know, I’ve been in the city council 5 years. I don’t ever want to be in a seat too long. I feel like, you know, if you get what you want to get done quick, great. Move on. Someone else can take your spot. So, for me, it was sort of is there another opportunity? I had at the time I I think there was this feeling in our city um that the interests of Draper city weren’t being represented at the state capital. Issues around growth infrastructure. We have the prison site development down in Draper. That’s that massive redevelopment project off Interstate 15 there. And so I I saw an opportunity. I a gap in the market so to speak where I think people’s concerns weren’t being addressed at the capital. And ultimately I decided to throw my hat in and I actually challenged an incumbent and and worked hard again, knocked on all the doors, talked to the voters. Of course you got to do other things, but ultimately came out came out on top. I I love that just with some campaign background. I love that balance of here’s an issue or in some cases, you know, a couple of issues that I care about and I can go talk to people about that and see if that resonates with them and then for the rest of it sort of fill in with what do you care about? And not only that, but what how do you um change you even the issues you care about based on what people talk about? I love that approach and I’m sure that’s a you look back at it and say that’s a big reason you were successful. Yeah, I think it helps. Yeah. Okay. So, you move on to the House, you win an election there. Um you’ve now done two one term, two sessions. Uh what have you learned so far through two sessions? What have I learned? Look at the legislature relationships. Trust is the currency in which we deal with. And so you’re only as good as as the the level that of trust that people have in you. And you know, we’re working on important big issues at the state capital. Not everybody always agrees. Even though we have a super majority up there, we’ve got a lot of Republicans. Not all of us think the exact same way about issues. And I think being able to build relationships with your colleagues and not just your colleagues, but uh business interests, community groups, special interest groups is important. And so I think what I’ve learned is just how critically important it is to build trust and build relationships with key stakeholders. Yeah. I think it’s interesting because if there’s one thing I found from my time on the hill, not in the legislature, but just working in the governor’s office, um even when you have like a Republican supermajority and you would say, “Ah, you got a Republican governor, Republican House, Republican Senate, supermajority in both chambers, everything’s going to fly, never underestimate people’s natural ability or inclination to split into smaller groups. So, yes, it’s a bunch of Republicans, but then there are little sort of subgroups of that.” Have you noticed that? And is that something you’ve had to say, “Oh, I gotta help. I got to figure out how to navigate this. Which group am I in? And am I in which group am I in based on uh different issues?” I mean, how do you how do you approach that? Man, that’s a great question. Um, I got to be careful what I say. Um, of course, like there there are different types and flavors of Republicans and conservatives, and I think you’re seeing that play out the national level battle out. I mean, I think the Republican party is, you know, is shifted into a different direction, but I my I’ve just I have felt like if you just come to the table in good faith as an honest broker, wanting to try to solve a problem, willing to compromise with this group or that group when appropriate, while still staying sticking to your principles as long as you can accomplish your ultimate goal, that’s how you’re going to find success. Um, I’d say look, I’ve I’ve only been there for two years, so I am not the pro uh by any means, and I’ve I’ve learning a lot, especially from many of my colleagues, but it’s it’s been fascinating. There’s there’s no social environment like like a legislature. Like, I have just never been a part of anything like it. Yeah. Like it it’s just the diversity of backgrounds and thought and personality and approach and the way we do it all in 45 days with this timer and it’s just it’s a unique experience. Yeah, it really is. You you kind of downplay sort of your position there. Keep saying you’re the new guy which is not you know it’s not not factual. You you’re only in your finished up your second session. But one thing I noticed that if you want to look and see people who are um figuring it out and becoming more and more effective on the hill, it’s what are they given to work on by leadership, right? Because there are issues you care about and there are also issues where it’s like, hey, someone needs to help advance some of this or we need to put someone to work on this. Not necessarily that it’s an issue you don’t care about and someone else does. You’ve mentioned that you sort of have a natural affinity for transportation infrastructure and one of the bills that you worked on this last session um you know working closely with leadership on it because it was one of the big issues was the the gas tax the change there this is HB uh got to get the right number here 575 575 tell me a little bit about that how it came to be what happened on it and I’d love to know you know as we sit six months past the session now did it work out the way you expected it to because there were some outside variables that nobody really necessarily saw coming. Yeah. No, it’s a it was a fascinating experience. So the our caucus at the house, you know, you you come together and you put together your priorities. And what what many of me and my colleagues had heard from our voters was that people were struggling with cost of living and property taxes are going up, cost of housing is going up, groceries are going up, electricity rates, although we have some of the lowest electricity rates in the country, you know, everything is just expensive. And so what we wanted to focus on as a caucus was cost of living. And if you look at a lot of the bills that we passed and and pushed, they were trying to address that concern in different areas. So I worked on the gas tax, which was part of that. You know, if you look at middle class UNO, what what what takes a big chunk of your monthly budget? It’s what you pay at the pump for gas. And so we started diving in. It was fascinating. We I met with all the major five refineries in the state. We have five big refineries just here in Salt Lake City uh in in Bountiful. We have Maverick and Chevron and Sinclair. Um, who else? Uh, Marathon. And we tried to solve the problem. Hey, we notice Utah gas prices are typically higher than states around us, even though we have the refinering, the refining capacity here in the state. Why is that? So, we started this conversation in the summer. If you got the refineries, it makes sense. Maybe we should get a break and everybody else doesn’t. So, Utah is the number nine oil and gas producing state in the country. That is surprising to a lot of people, but we are we are the number nine uh oil and gas producing state in the country. We have huge refining capacity relatively to our small sizes of state. And yet our our gas prices oftentimes are higher than states next to us like Colorado and Wyoming. And so we tried to figure out why is that? Is there something in our policy that’s driving that? And I mean, man, we could talk for 30 minutes about that, but that started the journey of the gas tax and it it shifted and changed many times. We had different stakeholders. I think ultimately we landed to a spot where we could say, “Look, we we we’re cutting the gas tax today. We’re bringing more supply into our markets to bring down the price as a temporary tax cut.” It was already built in to happen. Um, and we basically just pulled it forward. But the key around the gas tax is it’s all about supply. And the the secret about the refineries is that they don’t actually want more supply in the market because our refineries have a captive market where they’re the only game in town. So we haven’t opened up a new refinery in the United States since 1978. So if you’re talking about, hey, I need more supply in the market to bring down prices. I need more refineries. They’re so difficult to open because of the because of the uh regulations in Washington DC with the EPA and onattainment status with air and so existing refineries have a pretty good business where they don’t want new supply to come in because that erodess their margins and so it was a challenge for us to work to a spot that got them to commit to bring more supply in our market. That’s ultimately where we landed. We increased production at the refinery sites by 12% and and I think long term it will it will help make our prices more competitive relative to states around us. But the politics of the whole thing were fascinating. What was fascinating about the politics? What can you tell me about that? Man, I’m just trying to think where to start. This is where you take a sip of your soda and go. I don’t know. I got to clear my throat here. Let me think about how I want to answer that question. Man, it was just uh it was it was interesting to see how um just all the different intersections, public opinion, the legislature, you have other branches. You have the house and the senate. They have different views on policy. You have the governor’s office and then you have private industry. And anytime you’re for a while, you had Idaho a little bit, right? And we had Idaho which added a whole different I can’t think of another time that Idaho has been a factor in anything going on in the session in Utah but somehow that popped up in this one. Yes. And that was unforeseen. But what was just fascinating was seeing all these different stakeholders all with slightly different takes. But ultimately I think we were able to find a compromise and a position that I think will advance the interest of Utons. So you kind of do all of that and you’re thinking hey it was a big lift but we got the gas prices down just a little bit. Yeah. And then next thing you know, gas prices jump through the roof, not because of anything you did, but because of something completely out of your control. That one where you just kind of have to shrug and go, well, you know, some, you lose some. There’s only so much the state government can do. Obviously, oil and crude is a is a macro market. There’s it’s a global market. There’s a lot of big factors out there. I’ve heard this argument though that like, hey, gas prices now are really high and because and because they’re high, like, you know, the gas tax cut doesn’t matter anymore. And my whole thing is, guys, they’re high. the gas tax cut matters more. I mean, people are paying more at the pump. So, it’s important that the states figure out how to get more supply into our market and cut the gas tax. So, we’ll see where it goes. And in fairness, I had Abby Osborne here a couple weeks ago, and every time she would say gas tax, I would remind her, we say motor fuel user fee, that goes back to our time in the chamber. That’s that’s the term we like because, you know, of all taxes, the kind that are essentially user fees, you only pay this if you’re using it, are really the best and and fairest kind to have. Here’s something that people don’t realize. So Utah, we pay uh we spend more per capita on road infrastructure than any state in the country. And yet it still feels like as a Utah, it still feels like we’re we’re behind in growth, right? But we’ve made generational investments well before I got on the legislature, but to invest in road infrastructure and um we’ve got a ways to go. Yeah. Uh, you also worked on HB492, a transportation infrastructure and housing bill, a $100 million package that links transportation funding directly to housing supply. Am I summarizing that fairly? Tell us a little bit about this particular bill and why you worked on it. Yeah. Okay. Here, I’ll let’s talk about the politics of this bill. You’ll find this this maybe more interesting. So, housing this is this is here’s the challenge with housing. You have every single poll in the state. Noble, Noble Insights, Y2 Analytics, The Desert News, whoever does the poll, the number one issue on the tops of voters’s minds consistently is housing affordability. So, we know it’s a major issue. If you look at housing prices in the state of Utah, they’ve grown at tremendous rates, outstripped median wage growth. It’s becoming harder and harder to own a house. And yet, if you dig deeper into that polling data, what you’ll find is that most Utons do not want the state government to come over the top of local government and tell them how to plan or zone for housing. Yeah. And so you have this problem where we know that it’s the number one issue on the minds of Utons. We know we need more supply and yet Utons also don’t want the legislature to come in and to tell cities bop them over the head and tell them how to plan and zone to get more supply in. And so you’ve got this interesting dynamic between cities and the legislature and the private sector on housing. And what we tried to do on HB492 is to say, “Hey, instead of doing the same thing that we always do where we get in this big fight, legislature versus local government, let’s try to find something that’s a win-win. What if the state legislature does what government does should do? What if we lean into infrastructure to unlock housing you’ve already planned for?” So across the state you have 192,000 units, planned housing units that aren’t being built. Why? Part of it’s because a lack of infrastructure. And so what we tried to do in that bill was to say let’s we understand this tension in the policy space. Let’s come in and when you say infrastructure there are you talking about like water lines and power lines to get to development areas? Is that big regional infrastructure? So you’re talking about could be transmission lines, could be sewer lift stations, could be water treatment facilities, could be large regional roads. This isn’t to come in and help a developer put their curb and gutter in. It’s the big chunky infrastructure that often times is the thing that is holding up the housing from coming in. So this is housing that a city says, “We want this. We’ve planned for it. It’s not being built because of lack of infrastructure. We don’t have the budget. We’re tight. Our residents don’t want us to raise property taxes. So, could the state come in and partner with local government to unlock supply to bring down prices? And that’s ultimately where we landed. Uh, happy with where you landed on that one. Yeah. Okay. We’ll see how it goes. Yeah. Uh, all right. So, you’re two sessions in. Yeah. Um, what’s the biggest like, oh, wow, this is how it really works moment you had. Did anything surprise you? the speed at which the 45day le session happens like I mean you sort of intellectually know that it’s fast but when you’re there and experiencing it it it goes so quickly and just the sheer volume of policy that we look at and work in. And so it felt like I remember the first day I got up there, I was on the business and labor committee as a freshman and we had a bill, this was last year, the union bill, which is all over the news. And so my first committee was that bill and within the next 24 hours, I got over a thousand emails from people concerned about uh the union bill. And so just just the sheer like volume and just quantity of what we do. There’s been some criticism of the legislature like, “Hey, you guys do doing too much.” And I think there’s some truth to that. And I think we could probably be better at it. But you get a thousand emails on an issue. I’ve always been interested in how that really impacts someone’s vote, like or your position on something because you can’t read a thousand emails and do the job. You can sort of count a thousand emails. And then sometimes people are really organized and good at getting a thousand emails to you. How do you how do you make that sort of determination and maybe there’s not a set way to do it across all of them, but generally what’s been your approach to that? Yeah, I mean look it if you do the math like and I did I was getting an email like every six minutes. So you clearly every six minutes for a whole day and so you clearly can’t read all those emails um in detail and respond. But what I try to do is really focus on emails coming from my constituents. And I think if the general public wants to engage in local politics at the city council level or at the legislative level, I look, I think most of my colleagues are pretty committed to responding to constituents who have thoughtful emails. Sometimes you’ll get special interest groups that will create a form email and they’ll blast it out. There’ll be thousands of these emails. um you know those probably don’t have quite as much of an impact as if I get you know a constituent that has thought about it and you know put forward a real email but no absolutely it can have an impact I think it has a huge impact. Um what do you look at having you know done two sessions now and and you know having been here and been observant even you know this can be informed by your time in the city council when you look at the state do you say what do you say is like our biggest opportunity and maybe our biggest challenge over the next 5 to 10 years growth and growth I think it’s our biggest challenge it’s been our biggest challenge but I also think it’s our biggest opportunity uh but look if you look at if you talk to Utons you go doortodoor and you you hear them. People are struggling with the change of the state. The state has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. And you used to be in a small town and it doesn’t feel like that anymore. And you used to be able to get on I-15 and get home from work in 10 minutes. That’s not the case anymore. And so I think we’ve had tremendous economic growth which has been a just massive for the state. We’ve become one of the richest states in the country. I don’t think people realize that if you look at median wage per capita, you know, we do really well. And then if you look at but with that comes cost of living issues, right? I mean, housing’s gotten more expensive, transportation’s got more constrained. You know, we we have these conversations and debate about what should the future economic growth look like in the state. We’re having that debate right now with the data center, by the way. What kinds of businesses do we want to come into the state? So, I think the opportunities are growthreated, but I also think the challenges are growth related, too. Yeah. Uh, we’re short on time, so I want to finish with a lightning round, a couple of quick questions. Is that okay? Let’s do it. Five quick ones and then a thoughtful one for you at the end. Uh, these are just to get to know you a little bit better. I think we got a good sense of who you are, but just some fun stuff to to finish up. Uh, what’s your favorite food? Hamburgers or fried chicken? Well, that’s two different categories there. Let’s go Let’s go hamburger. Can’t beat the hamburger. All right. cheeseburger. Where? And where’s Utah’s best burger? How’s that? Oo, I went to Hires the other day with my kids. Great onion rings. I’m going to go Hires. Hires. Okay, that’s a good local answer. Uh, what’s your favorite sport or hobby? Right now, I love baseball. My two little boys are huge into baseball. Which team? Like, who do I Yeah. Who do you cheer for and who do your kids cheer for? Because you got the Dodgers. You’re a Dodgers. The evil empire. The Dodgers. And And you’re trying to put them that direction. Indoctrinate them. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you got Look, we’re looking forward to is is Utah going to get a team? That’s the question. So, that that would take us to the bigger question, which is if Utah gets a team, are you still a Dodgers guy? Are you a dieh hard Utah? Come on. You’re a dieh hard Utah guy. See, I’m the opposite direction. I’m a big Colorado hockey fan. We get a hockey team here. People are like, “Well, this is your team now. I had 30 years with my team.” I grew up in California. Yeah. So, I grew up, you know, a SoCal sports fan. Yeah. But, man, if we got a baseball team in Utah, that would be so exciting. Yeah. Well, it sounds like there’s a very good chance that that’s going to happen. All right. If you could not be a legislator um or in high finance. Uh what uh what profession would you most want to try? Man, probably a probably a college professor. Okay. Yeah. What would you teach? The thing is I’m not I’m not smart enough. I’m not smart enough to be a college professor. So I said what would I teach? I don’t know. So I studied philosophy and politics and finance at BYU. And so I I I don’t know. Something like that. Philosophy and finance. Is that an interesting combination? Do you find yourself as a a rather stoic financial adviser then? Yes, you can say that. Okay. All right. What uh profession would you not want to try? My wife’s an attorney. I used to think I wanted to be an attorney. I love attorneys. Okay. like we need attorneys, but that is not something I’d want to do. Yeah. I’m I’m grateful for all the attorneys that do it, though. It feels like signing up for homework all the rest of your life. Uh, all right. Give me a recommendation. A book, a podcast, a TV, something you’re uh enjoying. What would you recommend for me, for the audience? Bookwise? Okay. I’ll give you a politics book that I’m in the middle of. It’s called The Right. Aundred-year history of the conservative movement. Okay. So, if you’re into politics, it’s it’s fascinating to see the history of conservatism in America over the last hundred years. You you read the book and you realize that our politics today aren’t so different than they were at other times in our history. And it’s interesting to see how history repeats. Are you generally a non-fiction guy or are you a novel guy? I haven’t I I’ve tried to read this fiction book recently by Dece and said, “I’m putting this down.” The only book that’s ever defeated me is War in Peace. Like 80 pages in, there are 20 guys named Alexander. I was say, yeah, that’s like a 1500 page. Yeah, that was uh that was a fool’s errand to try that. Uh, all right, last question. Um, what’s the best piece of advice you would give your younger self? Go back to say sometime in your teenage years, you look back, what was what’s the advice you would give yourself? I would say live in the moment. like um I think sometimes people live in the past, but I think sometimes I’ve been prone to this. You live in the future. You think about the future, you know, building for my future and you forget about like life’s worth living right now. So, I think I would tell myself, don’t change anything, but enjoy every phase of life and live in the moment. Easier to say when the Dodgers are this good. Yeah, it’s easy. Cal, thanks so much for taking some time. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thanks, man. All right, this is a reminder that back channel is a northbound strategy production and that you can subscribe to the audio version wherever you get your podcast. You can also find us in the video version on YouTube. You can also find us on social media across the platforms, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and Tik Tok everywhere as back channel. We appreciate any likes and subscribes you can get and share this podcast with other people so more people can join our audience. Producer Shalis Obre joins us now. Uh, I thought that was a really interesting conversation uh with Representative Cal Roberts in part because of our first four guests. Now, he’s the one I didn’t know before we came in. So, this is the first time we’ve sat down with someone where I’ve said I kind of know a little bit about this person, but I want to get to know more about him. I I love the the background in high finance. I would have thought you would have said finance. Um, what did you take away from the interview? I just am impressed. Continuously impressed because I haven’t known any of these people very well before. a little bit, Francis, but nobody else. Um how um smart and engaged the people that are working in our state legislature are. So I I thought it was interesting when he mentioned that, you know, even though he has a background working in a super competitive and super uh demanding field like high finance and working in that in in New York. Um you know, big firms like these are people have to work just these incredible hours and still it was oh 45day session goes by so fast and the pace is so quick. I thought that was really interesting. I thought it almost would have been I would have assumed the opposite that he would say, “Well, compared to what I did earlier, not that big of a deal. This is relaxing.” Yeah. Uh so anyway, really interesting conversation with him and good to good to get to know him. I you know, recency bias. We just talked to him a few minutes ago. Um that’s someone who I can see like, you know, making some some pretty big waves in in the House in particular and in Utah politics for as long as he wants to serve. Be there. Yeah. Y uh Okay. I know you’ve got something you want to get to, but I have something I want to get to this week as well. Uh this article that I know you took a look at as well. Uh it’s uh called the feed is fake and this is by Lane Brown in the New Yorker. Sounds very highbrow of us to say we read The New Yorker and we didn’t find out about it because of our perusing The New Yorker. Sure. Uh this is a really interesting article because it essentially says the viral song, movie, meme, influencer, and celebrity drama that you’re seeing was probably the product of a stealth marketing campaign that it talks about something called clip farming where essentially people are paying, companies are paying, organizations are paying influencers or even just not influencers so much as just companies that have a bunch of dummy accounts to repost clips of things. Yeah. to make it seem like the thing they’re posting about is a big deal. So, it’s sort of like an online hype machine. And I I just wonder like where is the line and essentially that’s the question it’s asking. Where’s the line between marketing, you know, digital marketing promotion and then maybe like straight up propaganda. Yeah. Where they were saying I read somewhere, I don’t know if it was in this article, but that like 90% of what we’re seeing is is covert advertising. Yeah. And I think that’s I mean, okay, maybe like a marketing strategy when you’re talking about a sweater you’re going to buy or what lipstick you’re going to wear or what music you’re going to listen to and becomes a totally different story when you’re influencing domestic and world politics, right? That you think all of your neighbors are talking about something or thinking a certain way, be it extreme or conservative, whatever it is. Um, and they’re really not. Yeah, that’s the the exact quote of what you were trying to say there is 90% of what you see on the internet is advertising in disguise. And people should know this. So this this guy who they were talking to, Joe Lim, uh ran a company called Flutify. At its peak, according to the article, 65,000 dummy accounts pushing content for paying clients. That’s one operator. I mean, I’ve always kind of wondered that on TikTok, like who is either organically taking the time to continue to cut clips from this movie or clips from this TV show, even a TV show that’s 20 years old. Uh, and essentially this is saying in part it’s doing that to kind of keep in your feed so that then when someone does pay them to say, you know, and one of the examples they had there was the Justin Bieber set from Coachella, right? that like they were essentially paying a bunch of these places to go out and flood the market saying, “Hey, look how cool this is that this is going on.” And and I think to your point like who cares if it’s a Justin Bieber set. Like I didn’t watch it. Maybe you did. Maybe some people certainly some people did. I saw it quite a few times actually just coming across my feed. Didn’t pop up in my feed, but I I heard people talking about it. So at least it was sort of doing what it was trying to do. But, you know, when that crosses over into like uh trying to influence how people feel about say the war in Ukraine or um blocking the straight of Hormuz or um you know ICE activity in various states these things if you kind of get a hype machine going it does have an impact. I just like where do you think we should draw the line there? Like how do you how do you distinguish that? I don’t know. I one lady’s comment kind of stands out to me. She was like maybe it’s just time to turn it off and go outside. Yeah. like you tell your kids like that’s enough watching TV, turn it off and go outside. Like touch grass. Yeah. Um maybe there’s something to that for all of us to or to recognize that we’re in some kind of an echo chamber of our own creation based on what we’re f what we’re paying attention to. Yeah. They say that the marketing has always been about persuasion obviously advertising marketing. Nobody’s shocked uh that a soda ad wants you to buy a soda. Sure. And and even I think in politics, nobody’s surprised that like this thing that says vote for this candidate is that. But if you’re sort of starting a hype machine online that’s very powerful and can be targeted to people to say everybody loves this candidate and know everybody hates that candidate, how that can influence voter behavior is is one really interesting area for for us to keep an eye on. So anyway, so I I recommend the read again. It’s uh in the New Yorker by Lane Brown. the feed is fake and how that impacts everything we’re doing in politics. Okay, that’s my thing for the week. What do you bring to us? So, that might be a rational fear. We’ve been talking in the office about irrational fears. Um, one of my biggest irrational fears is grasshoppers. I would like sweep the trimmings for my dad when we lived in California and there would be grasshoppers with their heads off and their bodies would still jump all over the place. I can’t handle grasshoppers anymore. Uh, irrational fear. I I don’t know. I in part I’d say it’s rational if you think it if it actually could hurt you in some way. But they can’t like what is a grasshopper going to do to you like eat your crops? Yeah. I mean for mine like I I used to be needles. It’s gotten better. I don’t mind getting a shot now. Um I still don’t love blood draws, but I don’t I’ve kind of evolved to where I don’t even know if it’s the needle so much as I don’t like the tourniquet element of it. Feel the blood pumping in your arm. It’s had uh challenging effects on me throughout my life. Uh uh I think the I’m trying to think of the last time I I’ve passed out on more than one occasion uh with something related to needles. Some things that now wouldn’t bother me as much. Those have changed. What What have other people said as far as their irrational in the office? People that don’t like wearing people other people wearing masks. We had a mask. I remember that. Driving behind a truck that has logs on it. We’ll post a whole social media with take a poll. I can’t do open water either. That’s getting worse as I get older. Even though I like grew up doing competitive swimming. Yeah. Yeah, I get that one. I had that uh we had gone to Hawaii at one point and went to swim with the dolphins. But you were essentially out on like a what do they call those boats? Like a catamaran. Is that the right term for it? I don’t know. And it was some kind of boat. And it was basically like hey when we find the dolphins we’re basically going to say go and like you know like paratroopers jumping out. You just have to go and jump in. And so it was sort of this you know maybe a group of 20 people mass chaos. you go jump off the boat and then you’re in the water. And it wasn’t like I it was sort of an irrational dad fear, I would say. Like I didn’t care about me so much as I was like there’s no way I can count, you know, four kids and a spouse here saying, “How do I keep track of these five people who are the most important to me?” And the best you could do is like get back on the boat and quickly be like, “All right, all of my people are here before we move on to the next thing.” So they weren’t afraid, as is usually the case. Like my kids not afraid of anything doing their thing. I was more like, “Okay, let’s make sure we’ve got them.” I don’t know if that’s irrational, if that’s just like rational fear of leaving your kids in the ocean when you’ve already jumped. Some of these Yeah. It could be like risk assessment, right? Like where where does the risk have to be before it’s rational or irrational? Yeah. I I’m a I calculate the risk a lot things. And I I tend to be on the side of like, nah, that that’s not worth the risk to that. I’m probably much more of like a fuddy duddy when it comes to those kind of things. I haven’t wanted to take my kids on a cruise cuz I’m afraid that they’re going to fall. That’s irrational. What’s the virus? Everyone just got the Oh, haunt virus. Haunt virus. Yeah. No, it’s been about the water. But no, I think it’s I think it’s rational. Also, it’s rational for now. It’s rational. Yeah, we both have a a phobia or a irrational or rational fear of rat feces. So, there you go. What better way to end the show than with a mention of rat feces. Perfect. And next time.