00;01;20;06 – 00;01;32;19
Marty Carpenter
There’s no real intro to this. We just jump in so it’s nice and easy. This. This may be the episode where there’s the greatest discrepancy between guests and host in hair. And that’s, I think, what this episode will go down.
00;01;32;20 – 00;01;33;17
Celeste Maloy
Should I loan you some?
00;01;33;18 – 00;01;35;04
Marty Carpenter
You should. Yes. Absolutely.
00;01;35;07 – 00;01;35;27
Celeste Maloy
Average.
00;01;36;00 – 00;01;56;02
Marty Carpenter
Yeah. I think now we have to photoshop something of me with your hair and put it on the show right there. You are always running for office, and I’m so glad that you took a minute to sit down. You’re in that, like, high energy portion of the campaign as you get down to the end of this primary season.
00;01;56;04 – 00;02;03;00
Marty Carpenter
But man, just it feels like ever since I’ve known you, you’ve been running. And that has to be just so tiring on some level.
00;02;03;07 – 00;02;10;03
Celeste Maloy
I did spend 40 years of my life never running for office. It’s just the last three years that I’ve been constantly on a ballot.
00;02;10;04 – 00;02;15;05
Marty Carpenter
Is it like sleep, though? You can’t bank not running for 40 years and then have that energy to use at that.
00;02;15;05 – 00;02;21;15
Celeste Maloy
Point it’d be nice, like our hair, if we could just average it out and have one decent head of hair in one decent life with a few races.
00;02;21;15 – 00;02;42;17
Marty Carpenter
That’d be great. That’d be great. Well, I know you’re busy, so I appreciate you spending some time with us, even though we’re into that portion of the primary season. I think because you came into office sort of in a in a special way, not just like, okay, all sudden it’s time to run for everybody. You came in and took over for the guy who had been your boss, Congressman Chris Stewart.
00;02;42;19 – 00;02;52;01
Marty Carpenter
Maybe people got less time to sort of get to know you. So let’s start with a little bit. Just about about you. You grew up in rural Utah. Which part of rural Utah?
00;02;52;02 – 00;02;53;21
Celeste Maloy
I actually grew up in rural Nevada.
00;02;53;22 – 00;02;54;14
Marty Carpenter
Rural Nevada.
00;02;54;14 – 00;03;02;24
Celeste Maloy
In a little teeny tiny town. It’s called Hiko, Nevada. It’s about 150 miles west of Cedar City. So I was born in Cedar City. That’s always been town.
00;03;02;25 – 00;03;04;02
Marty Carpenter
So you’re born in Utah?
00;03;04;04 – 00;03;04;28
Celeste Maloy
Yeah, yeah.
00;03;04;29 – 00;03;06;13
Marty Carpenter
Skedaddle for a bit.
00;03;06;16 – 00;03;30;24
Celeste Maloy
Little bit. Yeah, yeah. And it’s been interesting what people find interesting about me now that I’m running for office. We did a poll during one of the races, and, you know, you asked these questions about yourself to see what people find interesting. And the thing people were the most interested in is that I grew up in a single white trailer, which I didn’t know was one of the most interesting things about myself.
00;03;30;24 – 00;03;36;00
Celeste Maloy
But I did grow up in a single white trailer. I went to a little tiny high school and.
00;03;36;01 – 00;03;40;00
Marty Carpenter
In Nevada as well. In Nevada. You grew up there and went to high school there? Yep. Okay.
00;03;40;01 – 00;03;44;16
Celeste Maloy
And then I went to Sue as an 18 year old and I’ve just stayed.
00;03;44;17 – 00;03;47;00
Marty Carpenter
What made Sue the place you decided to go to school.
00;03;47;00 – 00;04;10;14
Celeste Maloy
So when by default, really? I was involved in FFA growing up and I did soil judging, and my senior year of high school, I won the FFA soil judging contest at Suu. And that comes with a scholarship, a full ride scholarship to sue as long as you major in agriculture. So that’s how I decided where to go to school, what to major in and how to pay for it.
00;04;10;14 – 00;04;16;15
Marty Carpenter
So as a non FFA guy. Yeah. Tell me tell me about soil judging. What is that all about.
00;04;16;18 – 00;04;32;27
Celeste Maloy
So they they bring in a backhoe, they dig a pit basically. And a bunch of kids in blue corduroy jackets go down in there with clipboards and you have like a score sheet, and you go in and look at how deep the soil is and how many layers it has, and what the different layers are made of. And would it be good for farming?
00;04;32;27 – 00;04;44;13
Celeste Maloy
Would it be good for a septic tank? I can’t even remember all of the things now that you look at. But is it well-drained? Does it have clay layers and whoever’s the most accurate wins?
00;04;44;15 – 00;04;50;04
Marty Carpenter
So was that your favorite part of Napoleon Dynamite when he was drinking the milk and says that the cow got into an onion patch?
00;04;50;05 – 00;04;55;07
Celeste Maloy
No. My favorite part was when the neighbor shoots the cow. But I did identify a lot with that movie.
00;04;55;11 – 00;05;11;01
Marty Carpenter
That, well, that’s going to help your NRA rating and might hurt you with Peta at this point in the race. Okay, so you go to you go to Sue and you major in agriculture. Yes. Okay. So how does how do you go from agriculture to Congress and like what what were you politically? Were you into the politics of it or like what?
00;05;11;03 – 00;05;11;28
Marty Carpenter
Not really.
00;05;12;00 – 00;05;34;09
Celeste Maloy
I just wanted to, you know, get a job and and be able to support myself and figure out what to do with my life. When I was at Suu, I started an internship with the USDA in the Natural Resources Conservation Service. So I was working with farmers and ranchers, doing a lot of the same kind of stuff that I learned in FFA designing irrigation systems, helping solve resource problems.
00;05;34;09 – 00;06;02;28
Celeste Maloy
And when I graduated from Sue, I got a full time job in Beaver doing that, and I went and lived in Beaver full time and had a good career where I was, you know, part of the federal retirement system and doing things that I like to do and thought I would do for the rest of my life. But about ten years in, I, I got the itch and decided to go to law school, partly because I was administering farm bill programs, but I didn’t really understand why they worked the way they worked.
00;06;02;28 – 00;06;28;20
Celeste Maloy
And I wanted to know who does this policy, like who sets these policies that everybody else just has to live with? And I didn’t really know how to figure that out, but I thought law school would probably be a good step on the way. So I went to law school at BYU and graduated and went back to southern Utah as a deputy county attorney in Washington County, doing land and water civil law work for Washington County.
00;06;28;21 – 00;06;34;28
Marty Carpenter
So did your strategy work out? Did you say, okay, now I understand this, or do you still read it and go, I don’t know who knows what’s going on with all this stuff?
00;06;35;00 – 00;06;58;11
Celeste Maloy
It actually shouldn’t have worked out this way, but I figured out pretty quickly who writes it, because right when I got to Washington County, there was a BLM Bureau of Land Management plan that got released for Washington County. And I went to work on that, and I found out that the people who write this policy are mostly, you know, bureaucrats who work in federal agencies and they are accountable to politicians.
00;06;58;11 – 00;07;05;12
Celeste Maloy
And so I didn’t really want to have a lot to do with politics until I figured out that politicians or the people who can fix the things that I thought were broken.
00;07;05;19 – 00;07;31;18
Marty Carpenter
So you get sort of this nice boots on the ground, training boots on the ground, or even deeper on the ground, and they dig a pit and you’re going to look at that. Does that you represent so much of rural Utah. And we’ll get into the district shifting and all of that here in a bit. But you represent so much of rural Utah, I would think that like that has to be a tremendous advantage, because you’re talking to people in a way that you don’t have to mold a candidate to go talk to people.
00;07;31;18 – 00;07;34;01
Marty Carpenter
You speak the language, you speak the dialect. Yeah.
00;07;34;01 – 00;07;52;29
Celeste Maloy
And it turned out to be an advantage. I didn’t plan on ever running for office, but I spent so much time in the rural parts of the state, in the small counties, talking to farmers and ranchers and county commissioners and small town mayors, that when I decided to run for office, I had those relationships. And those are hard to build.
00;07;53;07 – 00;08;15;02
Celeste Maloy
It takes a lot of time to get from town to town and county to county and build those relationships. And I started off with a really good base of support in rural Utah, and I think almost everybody starts off the other way around. They have the urban connections, and then they’re out in rural Utah trying to build the relationships, buying new boots, showing up with Wranglers on, you know, trying to learn how to talk to rural voters.
00;08;15;02 – 00;08;16;22
Celeste Maloy
And I went the other way.
00;08;16;23 – 00;08;23;12
Marty Carpenter
Yeah. Everyone else is ripping the price tag off the Wranglers as they show up to the event, and you’re trying to pick which pairs.
00;08;23;15 – 00;08;28;25
Celeste Maloy
I was trying to get something in my wardrobe that I could wear in urban Utah, instead of just wearing jeans all the time.
00;08;28;27 – 00;08;36;28
Marty Carpenter
All right, so you decide you want to go work with the politicians because they can make a difference. Yeah. Was Chris Stewart the one and only or did you work with somebody else before that?
00;08;36;29 – 00;08;55;19
Celeste Maloy
He was the first congressman I ever met. I met him when I was working at the county attorney’s office when I was working on that plan. But because of that meeting, we had a congressional field hearing in Saint George on that plan. And so, you know, Rob Bishop was the chair of natural resources. He brought his committee out.
00;08;55;20 – 00;09;13;09
Celeste Maloy
Jason Chaffetz was the chair of Oversight and Government Reform. He brought his committee out. And so I worked with the whole Utah delegation pretty quickly after I got there. But then there were also other members of Congress from other parts of the country that were there for that field hearing. And so suddenly I met several members of Congress.
00;09;13;09 – 00;09;16;10
Celeste Maloy
I went from zero to a dozen pretty quick.
00;09;16;12 – 00;09;22;25
Marty Carpenter
Yeah. What was your role when you started in the steward office, and what did you like about the experience of working with him?
00;09;22;25 – 00;09;51;06
Celeste Maloy
I was the Legal Council was my title, but I handled the natural resources portfolio as well. So my role was that I was handling the policy related to air, land, water, etc. and then anything that they needed a lawyer for. And my experience was really good. I walked into a very well established office. It was well run, my role was clearly defined, and it created an environment where I could come in and thrive pretty quickly.
00;09;51;06 – 00;09;57;00
Celeste Maloy
Now that I have set up a new office, I realized how much groundwork they had already done that I benefited from.
00;09;57;01 – 00;10;12;27
Marty Carpenter
Yeah, and I don’t think people who maybe haven’t worked in that setting can appreciate how difficult that is to set up, because congressional offices, you essentially have a budget and you can go build it how you want to build it and put people in charge of of whatever it is you think they should be in charge of, right?
00;10;12;28 – 00;10;17;09
Celeste Maloy
Yeah. I think most people, if they’ve ever thought about it, which most people probably haven’t.
00;10;17;11 – 00;10;21;14
Marty Carpenter
Most of us don’t sit around dreaming like, well, when I’m in Congress, I’ll set my staff up this way.
00;10;21;16 – 00;10;40;09
Celeste Maloy
But if you ask if you’d have asked me before I graduated from law school, how how much staff does a member of Congress have? I have said they probably have 1 or 2 people who work for them. It’s actually more like 15 to 18, and there’s no HR for the United States House of Representatives. There’s no office supply store.
00;10;40;09 – 00;10;58;24
Celeste Maloy
Well, there actually kind of is, but but the House doesn’t run all of those things. Each office is its own entity. You know, you’re in charge of your own hiring, your own onboarding. You have to buy all the supplies. It just it’s there. It’s like 435 little kingdoms that all just happen to be next to each other and.
00;10;58;24 – 00;11;05;00
Marty Carpenter
In some way, a little startup because you show up and it’s like, well, you you don’t necessarily inherit what your predecessor had.
00;11;05;01 – 00;11;22;05
Celeste Maloy
No, in fact, coming in in a special election, you know, it was the middle of a Congress. But when Chris Stewart left his office shut down completely, they closed everything out. And so I had to walk in and start a new office from scratch. And when you come in on the regular cycle, you have a freshman class. They do orientation.
00;11;22;07 – 00;11;37;12
Celeste Maloy
You know, all the people you need to know come in and teach you what you need to know. And I’m sure even the people who come in on a regular election cycle, they don’t retain everything they’re told, but they’re at least told. This is where you go to get this paperwork. Here’s where your staff get their badges so they can access the building.
00;11;37;12 – 00;12;00;20
Celeste Maloy
I didn’t have that. And so we were kind of trying to piece it all together as we went. And when you come in a special election right in the middle of Congress, you run for reelection immediately. And so I filed to run for office again four weeks after I got sworn in, while I was still trying to hire staff, make sure people had badges and could get into the building, figure out where we get furniture for the office.
00;12;00;20 – 00;12;08;08
Celeste Maloy
It’s it’s much less of a well-oiled machine than I think most members of the public would expect.
00;12;08;09 – 00;12;17;09
Marty Carpenter
Yeah. So you mentioned furniture. When you say they closed out his office, did they? You walked into an empty building where you just had to figure out some new furniture or some stuff.
00;12;17;09 – 00;12;36;29
Celeste Maloy
Around, and a lot of the like, the walls were bare, you know, Chris Stewart took his stuff home with him, and he’s a bestselling author and a pilot, and he had cool stuff on the walls. I didn’t have stuff. I had a couch and a couple of chairs and it looked very masculine, very military and very bare, and we kind of had to create our own feel out of that.
00;12;37;00 – 00;12;58;17
Marty Carpenter
Yeah, and that’s tough to do because like you said, you’re coming in, but you’re filing to run right away. So you’re sort of saying, I hope that this is a place I can sort of set something up. But I imagine because I’ve, I’ve run campaigns before, that the campaign element of it is it’s pretty bare bones. Right? Like I think I ran the 2016 gubernatorial campaign on a on a lifetime desk.
00;12;58;19 – 00;13;02;16
Marty Carpenter
Yes. You know, it’s like a lifetime table. I was like, well, that’s my desk, because and.
00;13;02;16 – 00;13;02;29
Celeste Maloy
A full.
00;13;03;01 – 00;13;08;24
Marty Carpenter
Year for, you know, for a year and a half or whatever, I’m not buying. Yeah, I’m using money to buy TV ads off furniture.
00;13;08;25 – 00;13;26;19
Celeste Maloy
Yeah. No, there’s a lot of that feel to it. And, you know, you’re trying to hire staff and you want people who know enough that they can be good at what they do, but they know that you’re running for reelection and there’s always a chance you’ll lose. And so you may be there for one year. And so you’re asking people it’s probably a lot like hiring in a startup.
00;13;26;20 – 00;13;33;21
Celeste Maloy
You’re saying come take a risk with us. And if it works, it’s going to pay off. And if it doesn’t, we’ll all laugh about it someday.
00;13;33;22 – 00;13;35;29
Marty Carpenter
What did you like about being a congressional staffer?
00;13;36;00 – 00;13;59;07
Celeste Maloy
I loved that I was getting to solve those problems that I used to sit home and be frustrated about. You know, I think most Americans have probably had the experience at some point of yelling at the TV while they’re watching the news, like, who makes these decisions? Why would they do that? And as a staffer, I actually got to go into the room and try to influence those decisions and, you know, advocate for the people in Utah.
00;13;59;09 – 00;14;04;16
Celeste Maloy
Like, this is how this decision is going to impact people. Maybe we can do it in a better way to begin with.
00;14;04;18 – 00;14;21;06
Marty Carpenter
Yeah. And I think what people often don’t understand about a staffer position is you get an assignment or, or you take an assignment to go. I’m going to be way more of an expert in this than my boss is, and my job is to teach my boss about this. Yes. Give them both sides and then say, here’s my recommendation.
00;14;21;07 – 00;14;25;14
Marty Carpenter
Yeah, right. And that that’s that’s an interesting part of the job to walk in with that kind of influence.
00;14;25;15 – 00;14;45;07
Celeste Maloy
It really is. And it’s almost scary at first. Like I came with a lot of experience. Most staffers are pretty young there in their 20s. Most of them have political science degrees. And, you know, they have iPhones and they’re kind of running the world. It’s a really heady kind of job. I came in, you know, older, having worked as an attorney, having a lot of experience in my field.
00;14;45;09 – 00;15;04;08
Celeste Maloy
You know, in the practical, getting my hands literally dirty part. But when I walked in, all of a sudden the, the pressure that was on me to get it right for my boss, like I was the one out talking to people and gathering information and making the recommendations. At the end of the day, he decided what the policy was.
00;15;04;08 – 00;15;17;17
Celeste Maloy
He decided what bills we were running, but I had to make sure he had the right information, not just good information, because if I got it wrong, he had to go out and explain to the voters. And that’s kind of a weird thing that you can’t train for it.
00;15;17;18 – 00;15;34;02
Marty Carpenter
Yeah. How has doing that side of it helped you, now that you’re on the other side of it, where you have to sort of rely on people to say, I need a briefing on this, I need to understand this, and I’m going to ask really pointed questions. I just wonder how that’s made you feel like, oh, I’m better at this because I’ve done that.
00;15;34;02 – 00;15;44;02
Celeste Maloy
So I had a friend who told me when I ran, you are going to be really hard to work for. And at the time I was a little irritated that he said it. And now I know that he’s absolutely right.
00;15;44;08 – 00;15;45;03
Marty Carpenter
Right away.
00;15;45;05 – 00;15;45;16
Celeste Maloy
He didn’t.
00;15;45;16 – 00;15;47;29
Marty Carpenter
Work for me. You’re fired as a friend, you know?
00;15;47;29 – 00;16;06;04
Celeste Maloy
But having been a staffer, I think makes me more thorough as a member in a way that’s probably really hard for my staff. So most brand new members of Congress really rely on their staff. And the staff kind of tells them, you need to do this. This is probably a good idea, and to some extent they have to take the staff’s word for it.
00;16;06;11 – 00;16;24;28
Celeste Maloy
As a former staffer, I think I expect a lot more from my staff where they’ll say, well, this is just how people do it. And I say, I think we can do better than that, or like, don’t tell me that’s how people do it like this. Our constituents expect this level from us, and I recognize that. It probably makes me harder to work for.
00;16;24;29 – 00;16;28;27
Celeste Maloy
I try to be aware of that as I’m hiring and training people.
00;16;28;29 – 00;16;49;23
Marty Carpenter
So at one point, then you’re working as the lead counsel for for congressman, then Congressman Stuart. And did you get some kind of heads up that he was he was going to leave like walk me through that situation where you said one day, I’ve got a job and I’m thinking only about that job. And then very shortly thereafter, you’ve got to make a decision about running.
00;16;49;24 – 00;16;50;04
Marty Carpenter
Right.
00;16;50;05 – 00;17;09;21
Celeste Maloy
It was very shortly. So no, I didn’t see it coming. There was a long weekend that he was at home and made a decision, and I think planned on sort of holding on to that decision for a little while. While he had conversations with the governor’s office about what a special election would look like and with staff about what our futures would look like.
00;17;09;21 – 00;17;28;10
Celeste Maloy
But somebody got word of it. And so I went it was, you know, long weekend. We had Monday off I went in Tuesday morning to work, and I got a couple of texts from friends and said, how are you doing? And I thought, what? What’s going on? Why is everyone asking me how I’m doing this morning? People don’t just text me first thing in the morning to check in on my mental well-being.
00;17;28;10 – 00;17;30;05
Celeste Maloy
And so.
00;17;30;07 – 00;17;33;06
Marty Carpenter
Yeah, you’ll take offense. They do now. Yeah, now they should.
00;17;33;08 – 00;17;51;01
Celeste Maloy
But I thought, what? What do they know that I don’t know? And so I started calling people and it took a few calls before someone answered and I said, what’s going on? And anyway, someone told me that they’d heard my boss was resigning. And I actually said, don’t listen to people who spread rumors like, that’s ridiculous. Turns out they were right and I was wrong.
00;17;51;03 – 00;18;06;13
Celeste Maloy
But I told the chief of staff that I’d heard that, and he told the congressman, and I think they were really surprised that the rumor had started, and it gave him enough of a heads up that he had a call with the staff. And I think our call wrapped up just a few minutes before the Salt Lake Tribune tweeted.
00;18;06;18 – 00;18;09;06
Celeste Maloy
So it was a very, very short timeline.
00;18;09;07 – 00;18;19;17
Marty Carpenter
And that was from the time that you found that out. They said you essentially confirmed, okay, he’s leaving. Yeah. Walk me through the decision then to go from that to yes, running.
00;18;19;17 – 00;18;40;28
Celeste Maloy
So the congressman called told us what was going on. And and then he got on a plane and flew to Washington, DC. When he landed, we had a staff meeting. So it was like the rumor started in the morning. By that afternoon, the boss is in town and we’re having staff meeting. And he said, you know, I want to make sure that we help everyone land on their feet.
00;18;40;29 – 00;18;57;05
Celeste Maloy
Take care of all of you. We’ve got a little bit of time. There’s, you know, they can have a special election tomorrow. And he actually encouraged me, said, I think you should run. I joked, I said, well, where do I want to be as retired? Can you help me get to retired? And he was like, no, let’s try something else.
00;18;57;05 – 00;19;14;02
Celeste Maloy
So he encouraged me to run, which at the time seemed insane. I said, I’ve never run for anything. I don’t have money, I don’t have a campaign, I don’t have any experience. I don’t have a compelling story. I’m not a bestselling author or a world record pilot. And he agreed. He said, all those things are true, but like, why not try it?
00;19;14;02 – 00;19;32;02
Celeste Maloy
And I don’t think I would have ever been brave enough to try it. I didn’t even really have the desire. I’d watched what his life was like. It looked difficult. I didn’t have a huge desire to do it, but I also never would have had the the bravery to take that kind of risk, except that he knew what it was like and he believed I could do it.
00;19;32;03 – 00;19;52;07
Celeste Maloy
And it gave me some hubris I probably shouldn’t have had. And I really didn’t think I could win. But I back to your point about having all the experience in rural Utah. I thought a lot of people are going to want to run for this seat, and open seat is tempting, and they’re going to want to run based on, you know, what’s going on in the urban parts of the district.
00;19;52;07 – 00;20;13;12
Celeste Maloy
And I’m worried that whoever wins won’t understand all these rural issues we’ve been working on. And I wanted to at least be in the race to force people to talk about those issues, to make people go out and learn the issues so that they would know how to engage in rural Utah once they were in office. And and then I won, and I had to learn all of the other issues that I didn’t already.
00;20;13;12 – 00;20;25;06
Marty Carpenter
Know, which is the case for anybody. Right. But you at least wanted to defend some of that, that home turf. Yes, so to speak. All right. So you get elected, you win, and suddenly you show up and you’re like, all right, well, okay. Yeah.
00;20;25;08 – 00;20;25;28
Celeste Maloy
How do we start.
00;20;25;28 – 00;20;38;00
Marty Carpenter
This thing you were just talking about, like, trying to set up an office and setting up the office and getting the team and all that. That’s a lot of the blocking and tackling that people don’t see. It’s sort of the behind the curtain stuff that really is important for the success of someone who’s an elected official.
00;20;38;01 – 00;20;58;06
Celeste Maloy
And it’s where a lot of the politics happens. You know, you’ve been involved in campaigns and politics. Nobody does the job by themselves, whether you’re the governor or a mayor or a member of Congress, you have to put a team around you that makes you better. People who know more than you do, people who know things that you don’t know, people who are willing to go have the hard conversations that you don’t have time for.
00;20;58;06 – 00;21;06;10
Celeste Maloy
And that part is as much as it is science, and you can’t learn it until you are in the position, you just have to go.
00;21;06;10 – 00;21;27;22
Marty Carpenter
Do it. What about on the other side of that though? Like there are things that are specific to the member of Congress, right? You get to go out onto the House, to the well of the House floor, and suddenly there are procedural things and elements of that. And I’ve got to give this speech that I may have not looked at very carefully, and I have to stand up to it, and I have to give a speech to essentially an empty chamber.
00;21;27;22 – 00;21;34;16
Marty Carpenter
Sometimes that could be a little weird. They just tell me about what the adjustment was like to like the actual what people think of as the job of a congresswoman.
00;21;34;17 – 00;21;52;17
Celeste Maloy
So I was a staffer, and I think I was a really good staffer, and I thought I had a pretty good handle on what happened in the office. But there there are all these facets of the member’s life that you just don’t see as a staffer. You know, I’d never run the campaign, and I hadn’t been on the House floor, and I hadn’t had to get up and give all the speeches.
00;21;52;17 – 00;22;06;15
Celeste Maloy
And I joked with Chris Stewart a lot. Now when I see him, that if I could go back and be a staffer again, I would be a much better staffer now that I know it. His jobs like and I jokingly tell my staff all the time, everyone should be a member of Congress for a year before they become a staffer.
00;22;06;18 – 00;22;24;05
Celeste Maloy
Because, you know, I did things like write him talking points for a speech that I thought were really great. Well, when someone hands you talking points and you have to get up and give the speech, there are things you realize like, oh, it’s actually really hard to read and talk at the same time. And when talking points are briefer and have more spaces than them, that’s a lot easier.
00;22;24;06 – 00;22;41;13
Celeste Maloy
I’m just dumb technical things that you don’t think of until you’re the one doing it. But then, yeah, like stepping onto the House floor for the first time, I was I was standing in the Speaker’s lobby. I had my pin on, I was legal, and it took me a long time to step through that door. The Capitol Police actually said, ma’am, you can go in there now.
00;22;41;13 – 00;22;44;17
Celeste Maloy
And I was like, I don’t know, give me a second. I don’t know if I can go in there.
00;22;44;18 – 00;22;59;16
Marty Carpenter
Did you have that moment, though? I would imagine, and not in that position, but suddenly it’s okay. You say you got the pin, you’re ready to go in. Do you take a minute just to go? Holy cow! I can’t believe that this. How did I get here? Like, do you take a moment of reflection then?
00;22;59;17 – 00;23;17;06
Celeste Maloy
Yeah. So the night I got sworn in was the first time I ever stepped onto the House floor. And they did it between votes. So all of the members are on the floor. But also all the people that I invited to come with me are sitting in the gallery and standing in the Speaker’s lobby. You know, there’s windows on the door.
00;23;17;06 – 00;23;32;29
Celeste Maloy
So I could see and I could see all the members. I could see all of my friends and family up in the gallery. And it was it was one of those moments, you know, you don’t get very many moments in life. They’re like a Disney movie where the lighting is perfect and everybody looks glowy and happy. That was one of those moments where I’m like, how did I get here?
00;23;33;02 – 00;23;49;14
Celeste Maloy
The whole process was so fast that from, like, I’m a staffer with no plans of changing to I’m wearing a pin and they’re going to let me out on the House floor, and I have to say something in front of all of my new colleagues. It was only a few weeks. I guess by the end it was a few months.
00;23;49;14 – 00;24;13;00
Celeste Maloy
But it happened really, really quickly. And I did have to really do some soul searching. And they told me I had two minutes to speak. Like, you can’t say very much in two minutes, but I thought, what am I going to say to all of these current members of Congress? I am the newest person here. And so I went back to my roots and I quoted the FFA Creed, and that turned out to be kind of a fun I mean, I quoted it because of what it said.
00;24;13;01 – 00;24;39;05
Celeste Maloy
I quoted kind of paraphrase the line that says, I believe in the promise of better days through better ways, even as the better things we now enjoy have come to us through the struggles of former years. And I felt like that kind of captured how I felt that day stepping onto the floor. But what I learned is every member of Congress who had ever memorized the FFA creed in high school, then came and introduced themselves to me in the first week, because that’s one of those, you know, shared experiences that when you hear it, you’re like, oh, I remember that.
00;24;39;06 – 00;25;00;07
Marty Carpenter
And it’s an interesting thing as an individual like you probably remember trying to memorize that. Yes. And then when you did that, you’re like, I just have to do this for FFA, right? I mean, you were probably 40 or 40 or junior high or whatever, high school somewhere in that, in that range. And, and then suddenly it’s like, oh, well, that’s what I’m going to draw on in this moment when, yeah, I.
00;25;00;07 – 00;25;00;13
Celeste Maloy
Didn’t.
00;25;00;13 – 00;25;04;06
Marty Carpenter
Even know the little girl would not have, or the teenage girl would not have thought about that.
00;25;04;08 – 00;25;06;03
Celeste Maloy
Not in a million years.
00;25;06;04 – 00;25;12;18
Marty Carpenter
Is that in your nature to stop and enjoy moments like that, or is that something you’ve had to learn? As you’ve got to say, I got I got a positive.
00;25;12;18 – 00;25;27;02
Celeste Maloy
Appreciate it. It’s something I’ve had to learn. I tend to just go, go, go and not reflect as much. It’s actually something that Chris Stewart taught me even before I worked for him. He would say, you should be keeping a journal. You know, there were some things we worked on together that were kind of cool. And he’d say, are you writing this down?
00;25;27;02 – 00;25;29;13
Celeste Maloy
You should keep a journal because you’ll forget it really quickly.
00;25;29;15 – 00;25;33;14
Marty Carpenter
And I didn’t because those things become admissible. Yeah.
00;25;33;16 – 00;25;34;13
Celeste Maloy
Well.
00;25;34;15 – 00;25;37;01
Marty Carpenter
As a lawyer, no, I’m not keeping a journal.
00;25;37;03 – 00;26;01;14
Celeste Maloy
But I do. I’m a big believer in marking the milestones in life. If if you don’t stop and celebrate every once in a while, everything feels like drudgery. Even the really cool things like if you don’t stop and think, I just walked into the Oval Office like I just talked to the president of the United States. If you don’t take a minute and enjoy that, then it just becomes part of the striving and and everything becomes striving and you don’t.
00;26;01;16 – 00;26;03;21
Celeste Maloy
Why are you trying so hard if you can’t enjoy any.
00;26;03;21 – 00;26;14;27
Marty Carpenter
Of it? And there’s the difference between a moment being too big for you and and instead just pausing to say, this is awesome. Yeah, this is something I’m going to want to remember forever. And I want to soak it in. Yeah, yeah.
00;26;14;28 – 00;26;31;29
Celeste Maloy
I listened to an audiobook once where they quoted a famous author who would always, you know, he’d have like a nice glass of lemonade, or he’d see a sunset and he’d always say, if this isn’t nice, what is? And I’ve tried to kind of channel some of that, like take those moments when things are just nice and say, this is a nice what is.
00;26;32;00 – 00;26;51;20
Marty Carpenter
You were quoting the FFA Creed and you also could have quoted in there Ferris Bueller, that life moves pretty fast. You know, life moves pretty fast. You got to slow down and take it all in at some point. All right. So I want to talk about your district. And you can choose which one or the new one. How is let’s talk about the process of that a little bit.
00;26;51;21 – 00;27;12;23
Marty Carpenter
Like you for the most part, sort of don’t have any control over where the districts are. You get to make a decision on which one you’re going to run in when it all shakes out. Yeah, maybe just tell me a little bit about how challenging slash humorous that has been to go. I guess we’ll figure it out and we’ll run into one that we think is best when we get there.
00;27;12;25 – 00;27;15;12
Celeste Maloy
Well, the humor is a little harder to come by in this situation.
00;27;15;14 – 00;27;16;09
Marty Carpenter
Tell me about the challenge.
00;27;16;10 – 00;27;36;01
Celeste Maloy
But we’re bystanders for the most part. You know, as members of Congress, we don’t get to vote on the maps. We don’t really have any input on the maps. And I’ve tried not to. It’s something that the state does. And and the state legislature is accountable to the voters in the state. I think that’s the way it should work.
00;27;36;08 – 00;27;52;04
Celeste Maloy
But in this case, because of a lawsuit, the legislators didn’t draw the map. But we didn’t know for a long time how it was going to turn out. So the legislators drew a map that, you know, went into place in 2020. And that’s the map I ran on in the special. It’s the map I ran for reelection on.
00;27;52;04 – 00;28;15;10
Celeste Maloy
But the whole time there was this lawsuit going on, and then a judge throughout that map and the legislature drew another map. And then we’re all in a tizzy, right? These lines look different. Who’s going to run where, what makes sense for each of us, and then the court throughout that map. And then we all wait again. And then then the court selected a map that was drawn by the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, and it looked different than anything we’d seen before.
00;28;15;10 – 00;28;34;25
Celeste Maloy
And now we’re all in a tizzy again. And it’s a little bit of a roller coaster ride because you’re not steering. It’s wild, but you have no control over it. There were two points at which I had a little bit of control, or at least choices to make. I was part of the federal lawsuit to try to stop the map.
00;28;34;28 – 00;28;58;03
Celeste Maloy
Burgess, Owens and I and a bunch of local elected officials. And so that was one point where I got to kind of try to have some input on it. We were not ultimately successful. And then deciding which district to run in, because a lot of times when states redistrict, the lines move just a little bit. And so someone will say, oh, my district went from an R plus 14 to an R plus ten, but like the bulk of it stayed the same.
00;28;58;04 – 00;29;14;09
Celeste Maloy
These districts got really scrambled. And so and then as a House delegation, we decided we were just going to wait and see how this played out before we made an announcement or any decisions. And the public hates that they want they want the drama. They want the answers.
00;29;14;11 – 00;29;18;12
Marty Carpenter
Now the public can probably live with it. It’s the media that shows up and says, I want the answer, I want the answer.
00;29;18;18 – 00;29;36;01
Celeste Maloy
And the political insiders. And so, in the absence of good information, rumors flourish, right? And so I had people calling me all the time saying, I hear you’re going to run into primary with Burgess. I hear you’re going to run into primary with Mike Kennedy. I hear you’re going to do this. I hear and and it was it actually took a lot of discipline to just wait and say, we’re not making any decisions yet.
00;29;36;03 – 00;29;40;07
Celeste Maloy
We’re all talking to each other. And I think the media was really skeptical of that, too.
00;29;40;09 – 00;30;01;22
Marty Carpenter
But when you have a lifestyle because of your your profession. Let’s go go go go go. And especially the house it’s in for most of them it’s campaigning. Every other year you’ll get maybe you’ll get to see that in some way, right. That it’s every other year. And the job back between D.C. and back to Utah and talking to continuance, all these things that go into it, I would imagine that professionally, that’s real challenging to go.
00;30;01;25 – 00;30;03;11
Marty Carpenter
All right. We have to just be still for a minute.
00;30;03;13 – 00;30;19;00
Celeste Maloy
Yes. No, it does not come naturally to the kind of people who, like you say, are always on the go and always making quick decisions. You know, I make so many decisions in a day right now that I get tired. Sometimes I’m like, I don’t want to decide what I’m meeting somebody else, just decide for me. But I’m tired.
00;30;19;01 – 00;30;34;26
Celeste Maloy
Yeah. And to hold on a decision like that and to hold off all the people who wanted the information was not a very natural process. And even people in Washington DC, you know, our colleagues would say, okay, I know you’re not telling people, but like, what did you decide? We hadn’t decided yet.
00;30;34;29 – 00;30;51;12
Marty Carpenter
Yeah. So for the district you’re running in, let’s let’s shift to the new district. Yes. Just give us maybe help me understand, like where the overlap is. What are the similarities between the old district, the new one geographically and on issues like what are the similarities? Where do you go? Wow, this is a whole different ball game right now.
00;30;51;14 – 00;31;14;28
Celeste Maloy
Yeah. Well, so in the current district, the current district two, I represent 13 counties, and I think there’s four of them that I don’t represent all of the county in the new district. Three, there are 18 counties and less you count the little slice of Weber County that’s in there. And there are 19 counties. And I think Utah County is the only one that I don’t represent all of.
00;31;15;01 – 00;31;34;08
Celeste Maloy
And I live in Cedar City, so I’m down south and the current district is like the west part of the state. The new district is all of the south and the whole east part of the state. So still a lot of rural, still a lot of resources issues, but a lot of new counties, 12 new counties that I’ve never represented before, including half of Utah County.
00;31;34;11 – 00;31;49;25
Marty Carpenter
Did you feel like you had relationships, though, because you had worked? You know, I don’t know. Obviously Congressman Stewart’s district was the same one that you you currently have. And then the change there. But did you feel like ed relationships from like your other work, like some of those last decades.
00;31;49;26 – 00;32;07;21
Celeste Maloy
Before I went to work for Congressman Stewart, I did public lands policy for the Utah Association of Counties. So I worked with all of the counties in the state and in those rural areas, the county elected officials really are the, you know, in in urban areas, the mayor and the city council make a lot of the decisions. They’re politically powerful in the rural counties.
00;32;07;21 – 00;32;26;05
Celeste Maloy
It’s the county commissioners, the sheriffs. And I knew a lot of them from that work, and that helped. But your first race, and I think anyone who’s ever run for office will tell you this, the first race, all you’re trying to do is get out and introduce yourself to people and get name ID and I did that the first time.
00;32;26;05 – 00;32;44;01
Celeste Maloy
Then I had to run immediately again. So I was still in that same cycle of trying to help people get to know me. This would have been my first race where I’m running with the constituents that already know me, where I already have the name ID, and with a new district, I had to go introduce myself to 12 new counties, including an urban area in Utah County.
00;32;44;01 – 00;32;46;05
Celeste Maloy
And you’re playing the name ID game again?
00;32;46;06 – 00;32;46;20
Marty Carpenter
Yeah.
00;32;46;21 – 00;32;59;27
Celeste Maloy
Can I can we back up and talk about one thing about redistricting, though? The reason none of us incumbents are having a primary against anyone is because Burgess Owens decided not to run again. And in the middle of all the political.
00;32;59;28 – 00;33;01;27
Marty Carpenter
Turmoil, primaries, but just not against.
00;33;01;29 – 00;33;22;27
Celeste Maloy
Gotcha. No, there’s no incumbent on incumbent primaries. And Burgess decided not to run again, which is the thing that never happens in politics. Like he looked around, I think in a head to head with any of us, he would have won. And so he didn’t decide not to run because he thought he would lose. He decided not to run because he thought that would be the best thing for the party, for the state, for Congress.
00;33;22;27 – 00;33;50;01
Celeste Maloy
And then the news cycle moved on really quickly. And I think people just sort of accepted his sacrifice without giving it as much attention as I think it probably deserves. And and even my colleagues from other states just couldn’t believe that when, when we had four members of Congress and suddenly we’re only going to have three Republican districts that somebody said, I’m going to do what I think is best for the team and remove myself from this competition.
00;33;50;01 – 00;33;59;10
Celeste Maloy
And I think it deserves a little more, you know, stopping and reflecting on things. I think that’s one of those things as a state, we probably should have stopped and reflected on for a little bit longer.
00;33;59;18 – 00;34;20;23
Marty Carpenter
Some selflessness in politics that we don’t often see, or at least nobody ever gets credit for. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about I mean, I think of your current district and the one you’re running for second and third. Yeah. That still still a lot of overlap, at least not in people but in issues. Is that the case that you’re talking about rural issues.
00;34;20;24 – 00;34;25;13
Marty Carpenter
Are they the same on the western side of the state as they are on the eastern state? How much overlap is there?
00;34;25;14 – 00;34;51;12
Celeste Maloy
I mean, they’re a little bit different. Obviously, every county is unique. It has its own issues, its own personalities, but rural issues translate fairly well between rural counties. And then, oddly, Utah County and Washington County have a lot of the same issues. There are both counties that are growing really quickly and have for a long time. So they’re facing housing issues and infrastructure issues and, you know, all the growth pressures.
00;34;51;12 – 00;35;02;23
Celeste Maloy
It’s not exactly the same. But I think the time I spent in the county attorney’s office in Washington County and then also representing Washington County in Congress, is really helpful for getting up to speed on a lot of the Utah county issues.
00;35;02;23 – 00;35;19;10
Marty Carpenter
Yeah, you only have a couple more days until the primaries behind you one way or the other. And I know that’s a terribly stressful thing to think about, but let’s presume, for the sake of our conversation that you’re victorious in the primary and you go on to win another.
00;35;19;14 – 00;35;19;23
Celeste Maloy
I like.
00;35;19;23 – 00;35;35;00
Marty Carpenter
That assumption, another two years in Congress. What do you look at as the issues where you say, just like you did when you worked in Congressman Stewart’s office? Yeah, these are the ones I want to dig in on. And yeah, you’ve got to also represent your district for all of the big national ones that pop up. But where do you say, well, this is where I’m really going to dig in.
00;35;35;04 – 00;35;55;05
Celeste Maloy
So there are a couple of things that I really want to dig in on for the district that happened to be big national issues to federal spending and federal regulation. I think we need a lot of regulatory reform. We have to stop spending as much money as we are. And and I’m lucky in that I’m on the right committees for both of those.
00;35;55;10 – 00;36;23;05
Celeste Maloy
It’s there was some strategy involved too. But strategy doesn’t always work out this well. But I’m on the Natural Resources committee and I’m on the Appropriations Committee. So the Appropriations Committee has the purse strings. Natural resources has the authorizing authority over land and water and minerals and issues that are really important in Utah, both urban and rural. And then through some unfortunate circumstances, I am also the chair of the Congressional Western Caucus.
00;36;23;05 – 00;36;44;23
Celeste Maloy
I was vice chair to a good friend of mine, Doug Lamalfa. He unexpectedly passed away, and then as his vice chair, I ran and became the chair. Something I thought I wanted to do down the road probably wouldn’t have taken it on in my first full term in Congress if I’d have had my way. But I’m I’m fortunate to be sitting here on the committees I want to be on and with this caucus that I really admire and thought I wanted to lead someday.
00;36;44;23 – 00;37;06;01
Celeste Maloy
And they’re focused on those issues regulatory reform and spending. And then the more localized one is water. Western water issues are coming to a head in a lot of ways, and I’ve had a lot of time and background in this, and I want to kind of pave the way forward with water and make sure we have a 100 year water plan.
00;37;06;02 – 00;37;17;20
Celeste Maloy
You know, I live on two year election cycles, and so it lends itself in the House to thinking short term wins. And I’m trying to get a lot of people aligned to think long term strategy on water in the West.
00;37;17;21 – 00;37;26;03
Marty Carpenter
Yeah, it’s at the very least, is it safe to say it’s an exciting time to be in Congress? There’s not a lot of dull days on that job anyway, but it’s particularly not like right now.
00;37;26;04 – 00;37;37;01
Celeste Maloy
No. And it’s exciting and all the good and bad ways. You know, there are days, I think, how did I get here? How do I get to do this? Just last week I had dinner with Kevin Costner. Not one on one.
00;37;37;03 – 00;37;40;25
Marty Carpenter
But you leave that detail out. You tell people the story, though. No one’s going to remember that.
00;37;40;26 – 00;38;00;10
Celeste Maloy
He was a witness at a Natural Resources committee hearing, and I was sitting there the night before having dinner with someone I’ve seen on movies since I was a kid, and those are kind of crazy moments. And then, you know, there are the days you think you’re flying home and you have plans. And it turns out we’re going to vote on Friday and Saturday, and you have to cancel all of your plans, and everybody’s mad.
00;38;00;10 – 00;38;09;25
Celeste Maloy
And, you know, the people who are in Congress and had to stay or mad. The people at home you canceled plans on are mad. And you think, why am I working so hard for a job that no sane person would ever want to do?
00;38;09;28 – 00;38;20;25
Marty Carpenter
Yeah, that’s the case with just about anybody who runs for any office, and even more so in the house. Okay, we’re running a little bit short on time, so I want to just end with the lightning round for the lightning. These are real fun questions.
00;38;20;26 – 00;38;21;27
Celeste Maloy
I’ve been campaigning. I’m used.
00;38;21;27 – 00;38;26;05
Marty Carpenter
To this. All right. Okay. So favorite food? What are you ordering when nobody’s watching?
00;38;26;11 – 00;38;38;19
Celeste Maloy
Honestly, my favorite food is cottage cheese. And I know that’s weird, but I have to eat in, like, a few bites at a time as I’m running between things. And it’s, like, the easiest, you know, protein, easily digestible as long as you have it on hand. It’s easy.
00;38;38;20 – 00;38;49;25
Marty Carpenter
Sounds like you’re on like a nonstop track of girl, dinner girl, dinner girl dinner. Yes yes yes. Some some quick bite. Right. All right. What’s your favorite sport or hobby activity when you’re not, when you finally get a break from work?
00;38;49;25 – 00;38;50;07
Celeste Maloy
I don’t.
00;38;50;07 – 00;38;51;01
Marty Carpenter
Know.
00;38;51;03 – 00;38;52;27
Celeste Maloy
If that ever happens. I will let you know.
00;38;52;28 – 00;38;54;12
Marty Carpenter
Being in Congress, that’s your hobby.
00;38;54;13 – 00;38;58;04
Celeste Maloy
And maybe that would be. I would like to take that up at a competitive level.
00;38;58;04 – 00;39;08;00
Marty Carpenter
I’d like to give it a like to give it a try. I will say this. If you win the primary, I think you should take the maybe the next day you’ve got to do some media stuff. But the day after that take the day off and just sleep for like 20 hours.
00;39;08;00 – 00;39;08;20
Celeste Maloy
We’ll be voting.
00;39;08;22 – 00;39;19;20
Marty Carpenter
Yeah that’s right, gotta go to work. Okay, fine. All right. If you were not in the in politics, what is the one job you one profession you would love to try?
00;39;19;25 – 00;39;24;29
Celeste Maloy
Yeah, well, I did practice law for a little while, and I really love that. I’d probably go back to that.
00;39;25;01 – 00;39;31;08
Marty Carpenter
One of you enjoyed being a lawyer? Yeah, because sometimes with lawyers, you hear like, oh, I’m glad I went to law school, but I don’t like being.
00;39;31;08 – 00;39;41;01
Celeste Maloy
A lot. No, I was fortunate in that I practiced, I did public lands law and water law, things that I was really excited about. And I didn’t ever do. The big corporate thing where you’re billing in six minute increments.
00;39;41;03 – 00;39;52;06
Marty Carpenter
And do you really think, like when I think of that type of law, I think of it as like it’s a lot of reading, studying. That’s so that’s on the opposite end of the spectrum of what your life is like now. Is that why it sounds enticing to you?
00;39;52;09 – 00;39;52;21
Celeste Maloy
Maybe.
00;39;52;23 – 00;39;53;13
Marty Carpenter
Maybe, yeah.
00;39;53;15 – 00;40;02;12
Celeste Maloy
You know, when the social side of my brain could probably use a little bit of a rest, the deep focus side of my brain could probably use a little more time.
00;40;02;13 – 00;40;06;16
Marty Carpenter
Okay, so you would be a lawyer. What’s one profession you would never like to try?
00;40;06;19 – 00;40;17;06
Celeste Maloy
You know, I’ve always. I worked at a truck stop in high school, like serving food and serving people. And I always thought I would have a hard time being a waitress.
00;40;17;09 – 00;40;20;22
Marty Carpenter
But you. So you kind of did it for a while. Just. That’s the one you can’t do. Yeah. Okay.
00;40;20;28 – 00;40;32;02
Celeste Maloy
It’s it’s a lot of social interaction, which I do like, but the detail and I don’t know, I just always thought that was a really hard job. I try to be a good tipper because I think I would have a hard time in that profession.
00;40;32;05 – 00;40;45;16
Marty Carpenter
And you got a tip big, because otherwise you’ll end up somewhere in some gossip pages that you didn’t. So all right, you’re a very busy person. So this may be a challenging question for you. Okay. But book podcast TV show movie give us a recommendation.
00;40;45;17 – 00;41;05;15
Celeste Maloy
So I’ve been talking about this all day. So it could just be proximity. But I really like the history that doesn’t suck. Podcast. Okay. And Professor Jackson just released a new book about the United States called Been There, Done That. And basically it’s about politics, which is part of the reason I like it, but it’s saying all these things that we think are so terrible right now.
00;41;05;16 – 00;41;14;19
Celeste Maloy
They’ve all happened before. The Republic has held through all of these other tragedies. And so that’s that’s my today’s obsession, what I’ve been recommending to everybody.
00;41;14;20 – 00;41;25;06
Marty Carpenter
We’ll take that recommendation. Okay. Last one, go back and talk to FFA, aged 14 year old Celeste. What’s the best piece of advice you give her?
00;41;25;09 – 00;41;42;03
Celeste Maloy
So my sister, who is also my landlady and we went to law school together. We talk about this a lot because we grew up in this small town where we, we sort of saw maybe only one path ahead of us, and neither one of us has really taken that path. And I, I say all the time, like, what would I tell myself?
00;41;42;03 – 00;42;01;02
Celeste Maloy
Because 14 year old me memorizing the FFA Creed couldn’t have even pictured most of the things I’ve done since then. So I think if I could give myself one piece of advice, it would just be like, be brave enough to take risks. Like life isn’t going to go the way you think it’s going to go because you’re going to try things you don’t even know are options right now.
00;42;01;04 – 00;42;10;12
Celeste Maloy
So just be brave enough to take risks. It all turns out fine. Stop obsessing over what’s going to happen. It happens the way it happens, and it’s going to be kind of cool.
00;42;10;14 – 00;42;24;12
Marty Carpenter
That’s as long as I dare take you off the campaign trail, because you got to get back out there and run. Thank you. Good luck in the upcoming primary. By the time this drops, you’ll be about four days away. Okay. And we look forward to hearing good news for you. Thank you.
00;42;24;15 – 00;42;46;27
Marty Carpenter
Very special thanks to Congresswoman Celeste Malloy for making time for our conversation. She’s in the final couple of days in this primary campaign, and so that’s a very hectic time for her. I want to remind you that backchannel is a northbound strategy production. You can subscribe to the audio version of our show wherever you get your podcast. You can also find us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok pretty much everywhere as at Back Channel Utah.
00;42;46;29 – 00;42;49;02
Marty Carpenter
We’ll be back next week with another episode.
