Transcript

Marty (00:02) — Okay. Senator Kirk Cullimore, Majority Leader Kirk Cullimore, thanks so much for spending some time with us today. Appreciate being here.

Kirk Cullimore (00:09) — Yeah, thanks for having me, Marty.

Marty (00:10) — Uh, okay. Let’s start with this. Uh, are you a Utah guy originally? Tell me about where you grew up and and the family you grew up in.

Kirk Cullimore (00:17) — Yeah, I am. I grew up in pretty much the area where I live in right now. North part of Sandy, pretty close to Cottonwood Heights.

Marty (00:26) — Nothing more Utah than living basically where you grew up as well, right?

Kirk Cullimore (00:30) — Yes. Yes, yeah. It took a it took a little while to get back there, but but happy to be back there and be back there with a bunch of friends that I grew up with as well. So, that’s kind of fun. Uh, I’m the oldest of 10 kids.

Marty (00:41) — Wow, big family.

Kirk Cullimore (00:42) — Yeah, big family. Uh, most of them, well, about half of them live in the area still, and, uh, yeah, we we regularly see each other still. Um—

Marty (00:52) — What’s the age difference between you and your youngest sibling?

Kirk Cullimore (00:55) — I think it’s about 18 years.

Marty (00:58) — Okay. Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (01:00) — Yeah.

Marty (01:00) — So, you’ve you’ve had some management experience even just growing up.

Kirk Cullimore (01:03) — Yeah, I, uh, by the time I had kids, I probably changed more diapers than most most parents out there.

Marty (01:08) — Yeah, that sounds like it. Uh, I I love that idea of like not only living close to where you grew up, but you mentioned, uh, that you hang out with some of the same friends you’ve had for a long time. I have that same thing in my life. I think it’s one of the biggest blessings to have if you’ve had friends from like, uh, how far back do your friends go? Like elementary school?

Kirk Cullimore (01:25) — Yeah, well, a lot of these people are just, you know, I was friends with them, or maybe they were a couple years younger than me, and so we knew each other. But now we’re back in the area, and it’s kind of fun to, you know, have that commonality of, hey, we all grew up here, we know a lot of the same people, and and now we’re sending our kids to the schools that we all went to and stuff. So, it’s—

Marty (01:41) — Tell me a little bit about your family now. How many kids do you have?

Kirk Cullimore (01:43) — So, I have six kids. Uh, five daughters, one boy.

Marty (01:47) — Do your parents look at you and say like, you know, nice nice start, but—

Kirk Cullimore (01:50) — We’re we’re slacking.

Marty (01:51) — —you’re kind of slacking.

Kirk Cullimore (01:51) — Yeah, yeah. Um, well, you know, things are a little different now. But but, um, yeah, we’ve got six, so five daughters. My oldest daughter is 22, and then my youngest daughter is 11, and the the boy is number five out of six.

Marty (02:08) — Okay, so you got the boy and then thought you went for a second boy there at the end?

Kirk Cullimore (02:11) — We did. We thought we’d give him a little brother, and it was another girl.

Marty (02:14) — Didn’t quite work out. Uh, okay. So, you, uh, tell me about, uh, you grew up in Utah. Where’d you go to college and and what did you study?

Kirk Cullimore (02:22) — So, I, um, went to UVSC at the time, UVU now. Um, right when I—

Marty (02:29) — Same here, I love it.

Kirk Cullimore (02:30) — Yeah, right when I— it dates us when we tell people, right?

Marty (02:33) — Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (02:33) — I actually left high school early and went went down there. So, I started down there, um, I remember my senior year, I watched a lot of the O.J. Simpson trial, you know, during the fall semester. And then started in full at UVSC in January. I was on a violin scholarship, so I did music at UVSC. I got my two-year degree, um, pretty quick, was taking a lot of hours, and then I went on a mission. When I came back from my mission—

Marty (03:04) — Where’d you serve your mission?

Kirk Cullimore (03:05) — I served in the Philippines.

Marty (03:07) — Okay. Heaven bless you. I served in the Dominican Republic and I say there are two people I can say I feel sorry for. It’s people who went to the Philippines or to Haiti. Everyone else I’m like, I think I can play I think I can hang with you, but Philippines is a tough one.

Kirk Cullimore (03:20) — Philippines, it was it was awesome. I was in very rural parts, you know, and so we got to see a lot of the, you know, real Filipino life, but it was it was fun. I enjoyed it. Uh, came back and went to BYU. So, finished my degree in music at BYU, but switched my main instrument from violin to piano there. And then just did a BA, a general BA in music with a emphasis in songwriting.

Marty (03:42) — How long have you been playing the piano and the violin, and which one are you better at?

Kirk Cullimore (03:47) — I started violin when I was four, and then started piano a couple years later, and then was always always doing both. Um, did orchestras through high school, and then, um, at UVSC, of course. But really started focusing more on piano around 15, 16. And so, I would say, if you look at if you compare me to—

Marty (04:11) — Is that a calculation that the girls like the piano better?

Kirk Cullimore (04:14) — It was really my violin teacher, Jack Ashton. He’s a he’s a renowned violin teacher, um, just died a year ago or so, but, um, Jack was amazing. When I was about 14 years old, Jack told me, “Listen, you’re at a point in your violin career where you either need to dedicate yourself to violin and be practicing three, four hours a day, or be a good violinist and and focus on piano.” And he actually recommended to me that I do piano, that it would that it would serve me better throughout my life.

Marty (04:45) — Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (04:46) — He was probably right. I also think he was just like, “You’re not practicing enough to to do this.”

Marty (04:49) — That’s a nice way to say it.

Kirk Cullimore (04:50) — But, uh, um, but yeah. So, I started focusing more on piano at that time, and so, if I compare myself to performance majors, I’m not really good at either of them. But I’d say I’m I’m really good at violin and piano, but a master of neither, maybe.

Marty (05:07) — Um, I’m not musical at all, can’t play anything, so I find this really fascinating. What did you love about playing the violin?

Kirk Cullimore (05:16) — Um, well, it’s honestly, I probably started it before I knew anything different, and so it’s really—

Marty (05:21) — Brainwashing.

Kirk Cullimore (05:22) — Yeah, so it’s just it’s just always been kind of part of my life, but I I do love the violin music. I love the tone, I love the emotion you can get out of it. Uh, later as I got into high school and college, like, you had to learn like fiddle and stuff like that, because you can play with like country bands and all that. So, that’s, you know, the style’s kind of fun, but but I, you know, I just love the technical aspect of violin and the the emotion that comes with it.

Marty (05:49) — So, I’m interested then, you’ve got six kids right now. Um, how often do you actually pick up a violin these days, or how often do you play the the piano?

Kirk Cullimore (05:58) — I play the piano a lot still, right pretty regularly. At church, I’m the organist and the primary pianist and the ward ward choir pianist.

Marty (06:06) — You’ve got all all you’re the only one who plays the piano or anything with a keyboard?

Kirk Cullimore (06:11) — Yeah, we’ve got a couple, but, yeah, I do a lot of that. Um, I’ve accompanied a lot of violinists and cellists and recitals and stuff like that growing up. So, I’ve I’ve I play piano more, but because of my kids, I still do some violin. I’ve got all my kids do string instruments. So, a couple, well, four violinists and two cellists.

Marty (06:29) — And did they start in the brainwashing stage, or did they start by their own choice?

Kirk Cullimore (06:33) — Uh, no, they all start at the brainwashing stage. This is this is what you will do.

Marty — That’s the better way to get them in.

Kirk Cullimore (06:38) — Yeah, this is this is your life, get used to it.

Marty (06:40) — Are any of them better at it than you are either now, or than you were at that age?

Kirk Cullimore (06:46) — Um, you know, I don’t want to— yeah.

Marty (06:50) — Put you on the spot about your kids. I don’t know that they’ll talk back.

Kirk Cullimore (06:52) — They’re good. I I, uh, I had a lot of opportunities and was forced to practice a lot, so I I— and then it’s hard to it’s hard to judge because if they’re not going to pursue it in college, I I think I grew a lot musically during college, and so it’s hard to remember exactly where I was at 16, 17 versus where I ended up, but they all have the potential to be as good or better than me. I just don’t know if they’ll pursue it to the same degree in college.

Marty (07:18) — And you’re still involved in this in the music scene, not only still playing, but something called the— is it the Suzuki Institute?

Kirk Cullimore (07:25) — Yeah, so a couple things. So, Suzuki is a a method, it’s, um, it’s based on nurturing the kid and and teaching that music develops all sorts of other skills, but it’s also has a lot of ear training. I think it’s really effective on string instruments where you have to rely on your ear a lot. So, um, it really came to rise in the ’70s and ’80s, uh, from Dr. Shinichi Suzuki out of Japan. There’s a Suzuki Association of Americas, I serve on that board. And then, as part of these, there’s institutes around the country. The Intermountain Suzuki String Institute was started in Utah almost 50 years ago now by Ramona Stirling, who’s still involved. She did an amazing job. A little more than 10 years ago, I started asking questions about it, and they’re like, “Oh, we could really use your help.” And so, I I came in and kind of formalized the the nonprofit board for this organization, served as the chair for about 10 years, and, uh, still serve on that organization. My kids attend it, about 600 to plus kids come to this seven or 10-day institute every year. We get faculty from all over the world that come, and so it’s a couple hundred faculty and teacher trainers, so yeah, still do that.

Marty (08:44) — So, you went to UVSC, now UVU, with the intention of playing the violin and then sort of made some transition. Did you end up graduating from there, or did you transfer somewhere?

Kirk Cullimore (08:54) — I got my associates from UVU in music, and then transferred to BYU and finished my bachelors in music there.

Marty (09:00) — Okay, but then somehow you end up as a lawyer. So, tell me about that journey and what took you to Oklahoma for law school?

Kirk Cullimore (09:08) — Yeah, so I actually I taught I taught and played music professionally for about six years after I after getting my degree at BYU. Really enjoyed it. I think at my peak, I had about 70 students a week, um, between violin, piano, a little bit of viola. Uh, I actually really enjoyed it, was able to play with some bands, country bands, jazz trios here and there. And, uh, it it was a lot of fun, but in the back of my mind, I always had this thought like, “Oh, I need to I need to go get a masters or a something.” And law was always in the back of my mind. My father’s an attorney. And so, uh, almost on a whim, took the LSAT again and then, uh, decided to go to law school. I went to Oklahoma. My father grew up there, but I’d never been to Oklahoma.

Marty (09:54) — Yeah, we have to say Boomer Sooner and—

Kirk Cullimore (09:56) — Boomer Sooner.

Marty (09:57) — —horns down, right? We all know. I was a sports caster in Oklahoma, so we’ve got this a little connection here. So.

Kirk Cullimore (10:02) — I’d be lying if I said OU football wasn’t a a draw. You know, it was it was super fun to experience that, but went there. The cost of living you couldn’t beat. I, you know, at the time I started law school, I was 28, already had two kids, and so cost of living was important at that time. And, uh, OU was a really good fit.

Marty (10:21) — I got to Oklahoma at at a great time because I think my first year there, Jason White was the quarterback. I think Adrian Peterson was a freshman, uh, that first year. And I think they went to the I think the Orange Bowl was the national championship. They lost to LSU somewhere in in the first year or two I was there. Is that about the same time?

Kirk Cullimore (10:37) — Yeah, so I I probably came I I moved there in 20 or 2006. Okay. So, just a little bit after, I think my third year of law school, they went to the national championship against Florida, and I I did go to that game. So, it’s—

Marty (10:51) — Good time to be an Oklahoma football fan. Those those years from like 2004 through 2000 probably eight or nine.

Kirk Cullimore (10:59) — Yeah, they won in 2000, right? I think that’s when they won the national championship.

Marty (11:02) — Yeah, yeah, which predated me a little bit. But, you know, we we missed that part, but that’s awesome. Uh, what did you love about living in Oklahoma? Oh, you said cost of living, I think we can all if you’ve lived there, you can agree with that.

Kirk Cullimore (11:13) — Yeah, cost of living was great. I actually really enjoyed law school. It It might have been one of the first times that I actually like decided to focus on school and and try to get the most and enjoy school rather than, “I just need credits to get that, you know, to get that certificate.” And so, I dug in and actually enjoyed law school. Um, the people there were great. Um, we, you know, we actually dug into the community, thought we were going to potentially raise our family there. I had two of my daughters in Oklahoma. Uh, started practicing law in Oklahoma, and, uh, yeah, it was it was a lot of fun. Uh, it was a good experience to be outside of Utah, um, develop our little family.

Marty (11:51) — And super cheap gas in Oklahoma, that’s the thing I—

Kirk Cullimore (11:54) — Super cheap gas, yeah.

Marty (11:54) — — Norton, that’s the thing I remember from it is, man, gas just never cost anything in Oklahoma. Okay, so what brings you back from Oklahoma to Utah, and then what makes you decide that a political career might be in the in the process?

Kirk Cullimore (12:08) — So, it was late 2011, my father called me. His his office was growing, he he’s had a practice here for, you know, 35, 40 years now. So, that was, oh, 15, 17 years ago, something like that. So, he called me and said, “Hey, I’m looking to hire another attorney. I’d just as soon it be you. If if you’re interested,” and so we talked it through, and my wife and I said, “Yeah, we should take a chance to get back to Utah if we can.” So, we we moved back here. Uh, I started working for my father’s firm. Uh, was the managing attorney for about 12 years doing that. And, uh, that that gave us a good opportunity to get back here. Um, managing that firm or being the managing attorney there for for a number of years, it’s a great firm because it’s not, um, it’s not billable hours based, and so it’s you can usually get your job done in, you know, nine to fiver, obviously, like any job, there’s stuff you got to do outside of that sometimes, but, uh, it afforded me the time to to get more involved service wise in the community. So, I did, uh, school community councils during that time, got on some parent oversight board with, uh, Canyons School District. I also served in the Rental Housing Association and did their government affairs for about seven years. Um, so just a combination of those things serving when a seat opened up, a few people encouraged, “Hey, you should you should, uh, run for this.” And so—

Marty (13:38) — Tell me about your first campaign for the State Senate. Um, was it an open seat? It sounds like it was an open seat.

Kirk Cullimore (13:43) — It was. It was, uh, Senator Wayne Niederhauser, who was president, um, and I think it was late February or March, at the end of the session, announced that he was not going to run. Yeah. For the for the next year, so that that opened that seat up. Um, my representative was Robert Spendlove. Um, I didn’t know him well at the time, but knew him and reached out to see if he was going to run for that, and he had decided no, he was going to stay in the house, so I thought, well, I figured if he would run for that, maybe I’d run for the house. By him not running for that, I thought, well, give it a shot. So, it was an open seat. Uh.

Marty (14:24) — What did the field look like?

Kirk Cullimore (14:25) — It was, um, there are a few people filed, but what it ended up being was was me and another guy that that ran a ran in a convention battle. And it was, you know, I’d been a delegate and stuff like that before, so I kind of knew what I was getting into, but not not really. You know, it’s it’s different as a candidate, and so, I’m sure. Um, yeah, just just ran a convention. I was fortunate and got out of convention, so didn’t didn’t have to do a primary and, uh, yeah.

Marty (14:55) — Yeah, and way we went. So, you get into the Senate, what’s the first thing that when you got to the Senate, you were like, oh, I didn’t recognize I didn’t realize that was part of this, or I didn’t What was like your first sort of welcome to the Senate moment?

Kirk Cullimore (15:07) — Um, you know, e- even working on the the hill a little bit and, uh, government affairs capacity for the association, like I really didn’t appreciate how much time it was going to be. You know, how much of everything you’re supposed to know. I mean, I thought I kind of knew how government worked, but then you get in there and learn about all, you know, all the state agencies, stuff that seems obvious now, but I’m like, okay, I did not understand how all this worked together, and even like the State School Board and the local school boards and the and, you know, all of that, and—

Marty (15:42) — Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (15:42) — So, there was there was a steep learning curve, then there was the legislative leadership stuff that I I just wasn’t even, you know, I knew we had a Senate president and speaker of the house, but I wasn’t—

Marty (15:52) — And having taken over for the Senate president, essentially taking over his seat, you were walking into a leadership race. It wasn’t like, oh, well, we’re set with our four rolling it over.

Kirk Cullimore (16:01) — Exactly, yeah. So, you start getting calls, you know, right away about about stuff like that, and—

Marty (16:07) — Yeah, right off the bat, you have to make a decision sort of about who of your new colleagues do you support, and that is that is probably like a little bit of gut feel, but also there’s like a political calculation to that. Like you’re you’re sort of making that call, I imagine.

Kirk Cullimore (16:21) — Club, yeah, there is, and, uh, the the leadership team that ended up winning, you know, I took some advice from some people, but also, you know, uh, it was just kind of gut. I went with them, and they and they won, and it it it helped, you know, it served me well because it kind of sets you up in in different, uh, positions and chairmanships and stuff like that. So.

Marty (16:42) — Yeah, you’re kind of rolling in and that first thing is, I’m not sure who to vote for, but I do want to vote for the winner. Yes. So, whoever’s going to win, that’s who I want to be voting for because I may not know all of the pieces in play at that point.

Kirk Cullimore (16:54) — Yeah, yeah.

Marty (16:55) — Yeah, it’s a really interesting thing dynamic to go through. So, okay. You get into the Senate, I’m going to come right back to the Senate, but I want to talk about two sort of, uh, other professional transitions because you’re working in and essentially the managing partner at your the firm your father had started. Um, but you’re making a transition from professionally right now, uh, in your in your personal professional life. And then I want to talk about, well, we will get to the Senate stuff. I promise that.

Kirk Cullimore (17:21) — Sure.

Marty (17:21) — So, tell me about what you’re doing professionally then.

Kirk Cullimore (17:23) — Yeah, so my so my father’s firm encouraged me to run, you know. They said, “Hey, yeah, that that’d be a good opportunity.” Um, I did it for four or five years working for my father’s firm. And and I will say this, like the the amount of time that it takes to be an effective legislator, people people understand that during the session, you’re you’re gone. You’re out. And so, I think even my father’s firm, who who does this, were like, okay, Kirk’s going to be gone for these six or seven weeks, and then it’s back to life as normal. It’s not back to life as normal, you know. Uh, I think and I’m in a fortunate to be in a leadership position now and have been in the Senate for a few years, so I think, you know, that that your responsibilities grow over time. But if you ask my executive assistant right now, she’s she would tell you probably 20 to 30 hours a week is spent on legislative stuff.

Marty (18:14) — Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (18:14) — So, it started kind of, uh, encroaching on the time I was able to put into my my practice at my father’s firm, so they they kind of had to sit down with me and say, “Listen, this isn’t working out for us.”

Marty (18:27) — Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (18:28) — “You know, we might need to figure out a transition.”

Marty (18:31) — We just found our headline. Senator Cullimore fired by his dad.

Kirk Cullimore (18:35) — Yeah, yeah. Uh, of course, they were very nice about it and helped with with the transition. But yeah, so about three years ago, I went off and, uh, started my own practice, have been doing that for for three years, um. In that role, ended up on a board of a life insurance company, uh, overseeing some legal stuff, uh, regulatory compliance and and all of that, um. In that position, the there’s a holding company that owns the insurance company that I was on the board for. I I worked with them and hit it off, and then they offered me a position to kind of head up the the office and reestablishing the insurance company here in Utah. So, that’s that’s a pretty new recent development just in the last three months, and becoming official, so. So, yeah. So, I’m now now doing that and kind of phasing out some of the legal stuff, although I’ll probably keep a little project few little projects here and there.

Marty (19:35) — Uh, what’s, uh, what does Governor Cox call it, a reformed lawyer, right? He’s still doing some law work, but he’s kind of a reformed lawyer.

Kirk Cullimore (19:42) — Yeah, well, I think there’s a lot of attorneys where if a different opportunity pops up, that, uh, to not be practicing law, might jump at that, you know.

Marty (19:49) — I think it’s such a really interesting thing though, just even in what we’ve talked about over say the last 20 minutes. If there’s a lesson I think people could take away from it, it’s that, you know, you you can have a job and you can go do that job, but a lot of success is driven by doing stuff outside of that, right? Like you’re on a board, you get involved in this board and this board, and next thing you know, you’re running for this and and then, you know, all of all of this kind of comes together. Is that something that that came natural to you, or is it sort of like you dipped your toe in it and it just kind of got bigger and bigger and you say, well, this really has been an important thing to do.

Kirk Cullimore (20:25) — Yeah, I I would say it a little bit of both, right? Like I I might be a little bit restless, or might have, you know, um. You know, if you if I look back at my career, I did music, then I went to law school, then I was in Oklahoma for three years, then I was back here, and so, you know, there’s a lot of jumping, but but I also like to be involved in a lot of things, um, and so, you know, maybe I’ve short attention span or something, but but I do I do find myself involved in a lot of things, but it does but it does open doors and opportunities and and then sometimes you take them, and I I’ve taken many opportunities that haven’t worked out the way I thought they would, but it’s still been good learning experiences, you know, so.

Marty (21:04) — Yeah, you you open a door, you close a door behind you, and you hope it just opens three more doors in front of you, and you figure out the next step. All right, so we talked a little bit about getting to the Senate and dealing with your first leadership race there as someone just a new member having to vote in it. Uh, we’ve talked about a a personal professional transition, a non-legislative transition. But here you are, you’re the Senate Majority Leader. Well, first well, let’s start here. Tell me how you decided to run for leadership in the first place and and what made you, uh, you know, make that jump?

Kirk Cullimore (21:35) — Yeah, like I said, this is something that I didn’t really know or appreciate or understand coming into the Senate, the whole leadership dynamic. Um, but getting in, kind of saw it, and, uh, obviously, the first couple sessions I was there, saw it, uh, uh, Dan Hemmert was the majority whip at the time, and part of the team that I I supported. He, when Governor Cox won, he, uh, was called away to be the the GOED director.

Marty (22:04) — Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (22:04) — And, uh, so it opened up a opened up a spot, and, you know, just seeing the opportunities that that opens again, I thought, hey, I’d I’d like to try for that. I knew I was kind of young to the Senate, but, um, thought I was in a good position to try.

Marty (22:19) — But, so, Hemmert had been young as well, right? So, like, you can look at it and say there’s a chance there.

Kirk Cullimore (22:23) — Yeah, he he got in after two years in the Senate, and so, you know, I didn’t think it was unprecedented to try that, and was fortunate, and, Um, Senator Ann Millner was the assistant whip, so she moved up to whip, and then I ran for the assistant whip position and was able to get that.

Marty (22:40) — Yeah. And now, today, you find yourself as the Majority Leader and, as luck would have it, you’ve got another leadership election coming up this time because the Senate president, who you’ve been serving with, um, is, uh, not going to be back, uh, for the session coming up in January. I want to talk mostly about the dynamics somewhat, I guess, to this specific race, whatever you’re willing to to talk about at this point, but just the dynamics of of, uh, a leadership race when you’re already in leadership, right? Like you’re, uh, elephant in the room, you’ve been the Senate Majority Leader, you are the Senate Majority Leader. The only position above you in the Senate opens up. Um, how do you make a calculation there, or how what is that like behind the scenes for those of us who aren’t in the Senate to say how quickly do people start going, oh, who’s going to be in the leadership race or who’s going to do this? Because I can tell you from outside, it was like immediate. It was probably before like, uh, what do the polls look like in that race? Hey, what is that going to mean? It doesn’t take long for out people in the bubble outside of the bubble but in the in the orbit to say this is coming up. So, how quickly does that happen inside?

Kirk Cullimore (23:51) — Yeah, it I mean, it happened really fast, as you might imagine. It it feels a little bit weird just because, you know, we had some great colleagues that that didn’t win primary races and and so, uh, you know, you’re trying to balance like being respectful of that and the service that they provided in the ways that they’ve been able to change the state of Utah and and you don’t want to just run right past that and overlook it. And so, so there is some of that. So, uh, one, I want to be respectful of President Adams, Senator McCay, um, and and and even the other colleagues that decided not to run, Jerry and Ann, and and, uh, yeah, just Jerry and Ann. So, um, but yeah, it starts it starts happening right away. I th- um, a lot of people don’t appreciate that, uh, it’s the majority caucus that votes for leadership, and so you’re you’re working amongst your caucus and and there’s a lot of factors that that have to be taken in, you know. Some sometimes it’s political ideology, sometimes it’s geographical, like, um, you know, who who’s going to help represent my area the best? Sometimes it’s friendship and all of that. And and the reality is that as a majority caucus, like we’re together so often that it really does become like a family, and so it’s leadership races are awkward times, right? Because you’re having to ask people for votes against another one of their friends or family members, basically, you know. And so, it it’s it’s interesting, it’s difficult, and then you you also have to take into consideration everybody would like opportunities to to be in leadership, you know, positions. Like, it’s we’re up there to serve, but, you know, uh, uh, that that capacity to serve is change by by your leadership opportunity sometimes, and so, um, that’s another factor is, okay, will this help me get to a position where I where I think I could better serve? You know.

Marty (25:52) — Stuart Adams has been the Senate president the entire time you’ve been in the Senate, if I’m doing my math right. What have you learned from watching him in that role to say, man, he was effective because he could he could really had a talent to do this.

Kirk Cullimore (26:04) — Stuart Adams cares about Utah deeply and immensely, and because he’d been in the in the legislature for the time that he had and served on city councils before that and served on the Transportation Commission, like he understood a lot about state government, and because of that, was able to, you know, navigate the whole political thing very very well. I think for the conservative cause, you’d be hard pressed to find anybody in the state of Utah that’s done more for the conservative cause than President Adams during his his tenure in the legislature. And he’s very good about listening and and, uh, taking input and listening from stakeholders and and people throughout the state and then knowing how to direct them to the right spot to to accomplish what they need to get done. And so, um, you know, I think I think there’s a lot of stakeholders, a lot of business interest, and a lot of colleagues, and and hopefully his constituents that that found that, you know, Stuart Adams was a problem solver and and really moved forward the work of the state. I think, uh, he was most concerned about economic outlook, right? And for 18 years now, um, Utah has had the number one economic outlook in the state of Utah, and a lot of that could be attributed to President Adams’ work.

Marty (27:32) — Yeah, um, I’m interested because, uh, in his race in particular, and I want to talk about it more generally, but there there clearly has been an issue that bubbled up to the forefront, uh, just in the months preceding the primary election that became a big deal. I wonder how as a as an elected official and someone in leadership, do you have to make that decision to balance when there’s a difference in like, I this is really And again, I want to let’s set the data center aside. This is something that would be good for the state in many ways. Mhm. But for some reason, it’s not popular with constituents. How do you have that balance where you say, man, how do how do I balance those issues between the people I represent, but also understanding maybe things that I’ve been elected to study and understand better than the general public does.

Kirk Cullimore (28:18) — Yeah, I think I think you hit on it right there at the end, right? Like, we’re in a representative form of government and people represent, you know, somebody to go and dig into the issues and learn about them and then make a judgment call based on, you know, the principles that they hold true and and, you know, the judgment that they were sent there to represent. And it’s hard because, uh, particularly in in today’s, uh, vitriolic climate and with social media, a lot of that decision making seem like it can be decentralized and socialized because, you know, so much information can get out there. But I think a lot of information that gets out there is just like headlines or snippets or somebody’s opinion from social media that’s, you know, not totally informed. And so, it’s become more difficult, right, because because of that socialization of information, but it’s but it’s an inch deep rather than a mile deep, and you’re expected to go a mile deep to make the proper decision. And so, it can be hard, you know, because I mean, we’re we’re in politics, and so you want to do things right by your constituents. And if they don’t understand the issue enough to support a particular vote or particular position, then is it on you to make sure that they do understand that? And I th- think that’s part of it, or do you make the right decision and hope that they come along, and that’s that’s the calculus you’re always having to weigh.

Marty (29:43) — Yeah, part of it I think, uh, is, uh, it becomes even more important to have a good open process and, you know, f- recognize the moments when you can take some extra time to get it buy-in and when things actually need to be expedited. And then just to communicate clearly on it, and and I think that that’s got to be one of the tougher things about being an elected official is, hey, I still have to know all this stuff and understand it and process it and get to where I am on an issue and understand where the public is. That’s sort of been something that’s been going on since the beginning of the of the republic. Uh, but then on top of it, how do I communicate clearly in a time when not everybody’s watching the same TV news anymore or reading the same newspaper anymore. I imagine that’s got to be a real challenge for you.

Kirk Cullimore (30:26) — Yeah, I think whether you look at the federal level or the state level, like that communication piece is is difficult, and the legislature does not do well with that, right? I mean, you’ve got the governor has his bully pulpit and can do a little bit better at that because he gets the airtime and all of that. But between in Utah, 104 different legislators, getting one, getting a unified voice, and then two, actually conveying it, um, we’ve we’ve certainly struggled with that, and I don’t think it’s, um, I don’t think it’s any individual legislature that’s trying to pull the wool over anybody’s eyes or their constituents’ eyes, it’s just we’re a part-time legislature. You go in and do the best you can, and then it takes a full-time job to really, you know, communicate that back out and get that done while we’re also trying to maintain our professional lives, and so, I think I think as a individuals, we just get stretched too thin, and as a collective, we just haven’t found a good format to to effectively do that.

Marty (31:22) — Yeah. Um, it’s, uh, we’re about as far away as you can be from a legislative session right now. We’re recording this in in early July. Uh, but I’m wondering at this point, like, what do you look at ahead to the 2027 session and say this is going to be a big issue we’re going to have to deal with. Budget’s always part of it, but is there something that jumps out to you that says this is something we’re going to we’re going to have on our radar.

Kirk Cullimore (31:43) — Well, I think I think we want to maintain, you know, good business outlook here in Utah. And I think as we do that, we’ve seen that the it’s it’s realized growth in the state. And there’s a lot of people what the difficulty of of a growing state is, change is hard, right? And that’s the one thing we’re we’re guaranteed in life is is change. And I think there’s a growing resistance to change and to growth. But when I look across the country and look at talk to some of my other colleagues in other states, you know, the challenges that we deal with in growth, I would much prefer those to the challenges that they’re dealing with in in declining economies and declining populations and the social ills that come with that. And so, I think we do need to focus on on managing that growth properly and ensuring that we, you know, continue to grow the our business environment, but we need to protect water. We need to protect our airshed. We need to protect our environment. And and then we also need to make sure that that growth is done right because affordability is one of the number one concerns that we’re hearing from constituencies, and so, you know, we need we need more housing. We need more power, and and the demand for power is growing exponentially, even even setting aside data centers, and so, uh, we’ve got to continue to look at energy policy, and we’ve we’ve focused on that a lot the last couple years, but I think there’s still room to to look at it. We need to focus on water, um, whether that’s water infrastructure, whether it’s con- certainly conservation, um, those are things we need to be considering, and we need to be looking at really big ideas at this point because, um, if we continue to have winters like we had, the it’s a dire situation.

Marty (33:32) — I agree, it’s probably better to have the problems or the challenges we have with growth than with decline. Uh, but they are, you know, they’re real challenges that come with growth, and that gets to people’s attitudes about growth, right? The, uh, you go back to say, um, the end of the Huntsman administration, beginning of the Herbert administration coming out of the Great Recession, everyone seemed to be on board, let’s grow the economy, we’ve got to grow the economy. And and Utah by all measures did as good of a job or better of a job than almost any other state in the country. Yeah, that comes with that challenges, and and you have to just sort of really take the temperature of people in the state and say, I I get that there’s some fatigue or I get that you can even take for granted that Utah’s always this strong, but we got to keep that going up because otherwise the problems It just seems like a really challenging message to drive home to the public.

Kirk Cullimore (34:21) — It is. It was it wasn’t that long ago that we had one of the least diversified economies in the in the nation, and I’ll give a lot of credit to Governor Hunts- uh Huntsman and and before that Governor Leavitt, you know, that saw that and said what can we do, and now, you know, as it compares to the, uh, economy of the United States at large, now we’re one of the most diversified, which puts us in a really good spot, but again, it’s growing, but I think people would like to see their kids be able to stay in Utah if they want, to have the opportunities here in Utah, and so, you know, we need to work on workforce development. I think we’re going to see one of the biggest changes in our economy is happening right now through AI. We need to position our workforce to deal with AI so that we can, you know, continue to grow responsibly, but yeah, it’s growth growth is hard for everybody.

Marty (35:14) — And the challenge of that because AI, like, you know, even even if you just say, hey, all I know about AI is Chat GPT or Claude, every two weeks, there’s a new version of it, a new version of it, so it’s really hard to to keep up with all that. Um, I want to ask you a couple of questions that are maybe off the political path, uh, and then we’ll get to a lightning round. But, uh, uh, what do you are you a big reader? What do you read at or listen to podcast wise? What what influences, uh, Kirk Cullimore?

Kirk Cullimore (35:43) — Uh, yeah, good question. So, I I usually listen to at least two podcasts every week, one’s ones a religious one, and then one is the All-In Podcast. So, I’ll I try to stay up on the tech and the business side of things like that.

Marty (35:56) — We’re adding a third. The Backchannel Podcast, of course.

Kirk Cullimore (35:59) — Yes. There we go, Backchannel Podcast.

Marty (36:01) — Three podcasts is what he said.

Kirk Cullimore (36:03) — Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Um, I like to read historical fiction mostly because, you know, I like I like it to be an escape, but I still like to kind of kind of learn something.

Marty (36:12) — Okay, best historical fiction, what comes to your mind when you say, boy, I really loved this one.

Kirk Cullimore (36:16) — Gosh, I love like Ken Follett books. Okay. So, you know, uh, what’s the main is his his I can’t, uh, oh my gosh, The Kingsbridge, it started I don’t know, he’s got like four or five books, but the first Pillars of the Earth. Pillars of the Earth is is I think that’s a a great book, so I love that. I’m the author’s slipping my mind, but there was a Genghis Khan series that’s like seven books long that I thought was super fun and fascinating, I really enjoyed that.

Marty (36:52) — Are you a hardcover, a paperback, an Audible guy, how do you go Kindle guy?

Kirk Cullimore (36:56) — I when I read historical fiction, I like to like actually look at the words, so it’s but I’m on a Kindle, although I still prefer, you know, actual paper because I feel like I retain it better for some reason, but.

Marty (37:09) — I like to be able to feel how close I am to finishing the book, that’s that’s my push on it. Um, okay, um, what’s your personal signal that you’re getting stretched too thin, and what do you do when you feel like I’m getting pulled in too many directions?

Kirk Cullimore (37:25) — Um, you know, I don’t want to say it’s like make time for me because that’s that’s really not it, but if I find that I am missing the gym in the morning, mhm, like it it starts unraveling things, you know. So, I’ve I’ve got to I’ve got to go to the gym or walk regularly, um. Music, I I fall back to music a lot, I’ll sit down at the piano and play for 20, 30 minutes at at a night just to like decompress and stuff, and and then participating in music things, you know, I like to go to concerts, whether it’s rock bands, the symphony, anything like that.

Marty (38:00) — That’s a that’s a big gap, so we’ll put symphony on one side. Yeah. Rock band on the other, who we’ll go to the rock band side, which who is your favorite?

Kirk Cullimore (38:08) — Well, I’m I’m a child of the ’90s, so I love I love the grunge rock still, you know, I put Pearl Jam up there and I’m a little more edgy, like Rage Against the Machine and Tool, I love. Love that stuff, but—

Marty (38:25) — I can guess you graduated high school in 1996, let’s say.

Kirk Cullimore (38:29) — That’s right.

Marty (38:29) — Yeah, same here. Okay, so we’re in the same range, yeah. Uh, okay, um, let’s let’s jump to the to the lightning round. Ready for this? Okay, these are just, uh, quick answers, easy things to help us get to know you a little bit better. Uh, what’s your favorite food, what are you ordering when nobody’s watching or calories don’t count?

Kirk Cullimore (38:46) — Uh, pizza or cereal. Pizza and cereal. Okay.

Marty (38:49) — Breakfast cereal? Do you have a breakfast cereal that’s like that’s the one?

Kirk Cullimore (38:52) — Uh, I could go for a lot of stuff, but Frosted Flakes are always a good standard.

Marty (38:55) — Frosted Flakes, excellent choice. That’s the right answer. Um, okay, number two, uh, favorite sport or hobby? Watch, play, what kind of thing do you go out and do?

Kirk Cullimore (39:03) — Um, love, love college football. So, college football is probably number one, but soccer is right close behind it. So, I love watching soccer. Um, I tried to play indoor soccer for a number of years. I stopped a couple years ago after I broke my foot for a second time, but Wow. would love to start playing that again, but, yeah.

Marty (39:23) — And and in high school, if I re- I think I’ve football, what what did you play in high school?

Kirk Cullimore (39:27) — Yeah, so I was a little guy in high school, um, did not grow until 17, almost 18. So, my junior year, I think I was about 5 5 3, 5 4 and I wrestled the 103 weight class, so I wrestled a lot of ninth graders when I was a junior, which makes you feel tough.

Marty (39:44) — Stacking up the Ws, yeah. Any injuries from that?

Kirk Cullimore (39:48) — Yeah, yeah, I broke my collarbone twice my junior year, so that that—

Marty (39:53) — Both sides or same?

Kirk Cullimore (39:54) — Same one. I I broke it early in the season, so I thought, okay, I can rehab it, you know, set it, come back in six to eight weeks, came back, still had the last half of the season that I could wrestle, and wrestled one or two matches, and then broke it again in practice, and that was that. So.

Marty (40:11) — What is a profession other than your own that you would like to try?

Kirk Cullimore (40:15) — Um, I don’t know anything about this, so I shouldn’t say, but like, physicists. Hm. Like, seems super interesting and it’s like smart people, whether it’s astrophysicists or just, you know. I don’t I don’t even know what I’m talking about here, but that that if I had to redo it, maybe I’d go back to physics.

Marty (40:32) — But just seems cool, you don’t have to do it, you just have to decide that that sounds cool. We’ll we’ll accept that answer, physicists is the right answer. Um, okay, um, what’s the, uh, what’s the best compliment you’ve ever received from someone who disagreed with you?

Kirk Cullimore (40:48) — Um, and and this happens a lot at the legislature, right, but I th- think that that I listen and actually appreciated where they’re coming from and would be pragmatic in approaching that, you know, taking an approach with them because I think I think this is a skill, maybe maybe as a musician, but also as an attorney where, you know, I don’t I don’t, uh, impute ill will towards most people, right? Like they’re coming at a problem because they want to solve it and probably for a good reason. And so, if that’s their intent, there’s probably a way that we can, you know, we can find some common ground and solve the problem. And so, as a legislature, it doesn’t matter if they’re Democrat or maybe we just don’t agree and maybe it’s not even a nonpartisan issue, but if if they’re looking to solve a problem, generally, I’ll jump in and help them let’s find a solution and it may not be what either of us consider at first, but, you know, I think we can find a solution.

Marty (41:53) — I think, and I think the way, uh, kids who were in junior high in the early ’90s would say it is if they’ve got a problem, yo, you’ll solve it. Check out the hook while Kirk Cullimore revolves it. All right, last one, I want to talk to you about, uh, best piece of advice that you would give your younger self. You’re a man of wisdom now at age 48, let’s say, and you get to go back and you get to go talk to your 14, 15-year-old self, what are you telling that guy?

Kirk Cullimore (42:20) — Well, I so I’ve got six kids, so I, you know, I—

Marty (42:22) — You get to impart this advice a lot.

Kirk Cullimore (42:24) — Yes, I try that a lot, but simple things, you know, it’s it’s the the daily discipline stuff that gets you to where you want to be and you’re not going to see immediate results on anything, but if you stick with anything, you’ll get there. And then just be where you’re supposed to be when you’re supposed to be there, you know, showing up is like 90% of the battle, and so just continue to show up and and do the little things every day that that yield the long-term results that you’re looking for.

Marty (42:54) — Um, Senator Cullimore, thanks for your time, and no matter what happens in the, uh, leadership race, we wish you the best of luck there and the best of luck with the upcoming session.

Kirk Cullimore (43:02) — Appreciate it, thanks for having me, Marty.

Marty (43:03) — Awesome. Yeah.

Kirk Cullimore (43:04) — Yeah.